Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

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Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Fri May 04, 2012 9:29 am

Speaks for itself really. Yay or nay?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Sam_Vimes on Fri May 04, 2012 11:52 am

I wish "I would sooner die" had been an option.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Fri May 04, 2012 3:58 pm

Sorry, with hindsight that should really have been included... Razz
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Fri May 04, 2012 10:57 pm

Sam_Vimes wrote:I wish "I would sooner die" had been an option.

I really like my LCS owner, but this issue is a pain. He is one of those people who think Moore doesn't deserve to own the characters (although if Moore didn't read the contract, that is a bit odd) and that it's only because I like Moore so much that I am protesting. He says if it were really an ethical issue that I'd have stopped reading because of the Siegel and Schuster heirs. Like you can't get to the point where "enough is enough".
I'm also thinking I may have to stop supporting Marvel. They're no better.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 8:23 am

If you mean the Gary Friedrich thing, I'm afraid that on that issue I'm not quite as sympathetic. Gary was not the sole creator of Ghost Rider, and he was selling someone else's artwork.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sat May 05, 2012 5:08 pm

tony ingram wrote:If you mean the Gary Friedrich thing, I'm afraid that on that issue I'm not quite as sympathetic. Gary was not the sole creator of Ghost Rider, and he was selling someone else's artwork.

That's part of it, especially the way they (to me obviously) used him to control/scare other creators. But, their long history of treating creators like crap is more the problem.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 5:17 pm

Fair enough. With regards to people like Kirby I agree, it was just the Friedrich thing which rankled with me, all the sympathy the guy was getting. Yes, he's had a rough time and Marvel could have been magnanimous, but ultimately he was claiming ownership of a character partially created by his editor and with a name borrowed from a pre-existing one, and selling copies of Mike Ploog's artwork for profit at conventions. I can't see that he had a right to do either. If Ploog had been selling his own work, Marvel would have been fine with it, copyrighted character or not, just as they have for years.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sat May 05, 2012 5:23 pm

tony ingram wrote:it was just the Friedrich thing which rankled with me

I read some about it, and he's not the most easily sympathised-with creator, but I don't think he deserves to be screwed over like he got.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 5:32 pm

Aside from Marvel rather pointlessly sueing him when they didn't need to just to make a point, which I disagree with, I don't think he really got screwed over. He co-created the character of Ghost Rider (but not the name or the most prominent facet of the design, the flaming skull) under a work for hire agreement, then tried to claim ownership in order to cash in on the character's newfound popularity in movies he had nothing to do with in which the visual depiction of the character was based on the 90's series which he also had nothing to do with. And on top of that, he was selling copyrighted images which were not his work. What case did he have?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sat May 05, 2012 5:35 pm

tony ingram wrote:Aside from Marvel rather pointlessly sueing him when they didn't need to just to make a point

This was the part that bothered (and bothers) me. It's pretty clearly meant to shut down future attempts to get money for creations, with no regard to legitimacy.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 5:39 pm

I doubt it'll work, somehow. I fully expect more such claims in the next few years, both genuine and spurious.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sat May 05, 2012 5:41 pm

tony ingram wrote:I fully expect more such claims in the next few years, both genuine and spurious.

And more fans whining about not getting their comics...
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 5:44 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:I fully expect more such claims in the next few years, both genuine and spurious.

And more fans whining about not getting their comics...
Because that is so much more important than people being fairly compensated for their work...


Last edited by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sat May 05, 2012 7:28 pm

tony ingram wrote:Because that is so much more important than people being fairly compensated for their work...

That's the problem. For a sizeable number of fans, it IS. Otherwise, the publishers couldn't keep doing it.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat May 05, 2012 8:55 pm

There are times when I almost believe that a sizeable chunk of comics fandom deserves to be regarded as emotionally retarded nerds...
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Sun May 06, 2012 1:11 am

tony ingram wrote:There are times when I almost believe that a sizeable chunk of comics fandom deserves to be regarded as emotionally retarded nerds...

I don't "almost" believe it, I do. Enough of them that it taints everyone else, but they're often the loudest.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Wed May 30, 2018 2:50 am

I wonder how the results of this poll/thread match up with the current situation with Rebirth / Doomsday Cluck? affraid
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Wed May 30, 2018 6:58 pm

MajorHoy wrote:I wonder how the results of this poll/thread match up with the current situation with Rebirth / Doomsday Cluck?  affraid  

I buy neither. Although I did buy a few issues of Rebirth titles, to be honest, but am back at zero.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Wed May 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:I wonder how the results of this poll/thread match up with the current situation with Rebirth / Doomsday Cluck?  affraid  

I buy neither. Although I did buy a few issues of Rebirth titles, to be honest, but am back at zero.
Weren't impressed?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Thu May 31, 2018 12:33 am

tony ingram wrote:
Mbast1 wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:I wonder how the results of this poll/thread match up with the current situation with Rebirth / Doomsday Cluck?  affraid  
I buy neither. Although I did buy a few issues of Rebirth titles, to be honest, but am back at zero.
Weren't impressed?
Define "impressed".
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Thu May 31, 2018 2:31 pm

I gave up on DC entirely from 2011-2016, but on the whoe, I've found most of the post-Rebirth stuff that I've read to be better than much of what they published from about 2005-2011. It seems truer to the spirit of the characters.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Thu May 31, 2018 8:28 pm

tony ingram wrote:Weren't impressed?

Maybe not. I tried to get back into it, but it wasn't enough to move me past my original reasons for dropping DC.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Thu May 31, 2018 9:09 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Weren't impressed?

Maybe not. I tried to get back into it, but it wasn't enough to move me past my original reasons for dropping DC.
Too much grim'n gritty?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:24 pm

tony ingram wrote:Too much grim'n gritty?

Regarding why the new material didn't move me, honestly it wasn't that new. It really felt like they half-assed the New 52, decided that wasn't going anywhere and then half-heartedly went back to what wasn't making them money before. With stories that I feel like I've read many times before.
Serial superhero comics just aren't "built" for sustained, decades long readers.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:27 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Too much grim'n gritty?

Regarding why the new material didn't move me, honestly it wasn't that new. It really felt like they half-assed the New 52, decided that wasn't going anywhere and then half-heartedly went back to what wasn't making them money before. With stories that I feel like I've read many times before.
Serial superhero comics just aren't "built" for sustained, decades long readers.
I suppose the same can be said for most serialised fiction. Maybe I just find it easier to ignore the repetition.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:02 pm

Mbast1 wrote:Regarding why the new material didn't move me, honestly it wasn't that new. It really felt like they half-assed the New 52, decided that wasn't going anywhere and then half-heartedly went back to what wasn't making them money before. With stories that I feel like I've read many times before.
That's pretty-much why I gave up on regularly buying/reading DC (and other comic books) in 1995 (a little after Zero Hour): the stories either seemed too familiar or just weren't interesting enough at all.
I'd occasionally go through brief spells where I'd pick up a title or three for a few months, or at least leaf through certain titles on the spinner racks in Borders book stores, but I really didn't get back into regularly buying stuff again until about 2010.
Unfortunately, the way Rebirth seems to be going, it feels like 1995 again for me. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm

tony ingram wrote:I suppose the same can be said for most serialised fiction. Maybe I just find it easier to ignore the repetition.

True, and I can do that, but I was looking for a reason to give up my ethical reason for dropping DC. So it probably wasn't going to happen any way.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:26 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:I suppose the same can be said for most serialised fiction. Maybe I just find it easier to ignore the repetition.

True, and I can do that, but I was looking for a reason to give up my ethical reason for dropping DC. So it probably wasn't going to happen any way.
Surely the fact that DC basically admitted that they were wrong to go the New 52 route and are now systematically undoing it counts for something?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:35 pm

tony ingram wrote:Surely the fact that DC basically admitted that they were wrong to go the New 52 route and are now systematically undoing it counts for something?
But they haven't just dropped everything from the New52 and gone completely back to past continuity (at least not in the past two years). It seems more like they're "enhancing" what was done in the New52 with aspects/parts of pre-Flashpoint continuity, and being as vague as possible about what is or isn't "canon" these days.
They're really just muddying the waters even further for now, and who knows if/how/when it may all wash out.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:44 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Surely the fact that DC basically admitted that they were wrong to go the New 52 route and are now systematically undoing it counts for something?
But they haven't just dropped everything from the New52 and gone completely back to past continuity (at least not in the past two years). It seems more like they're "enhancing" what was done in the New52 with aspects/parts of pre-Flashpoint continuity, and being as vague as possible about what is or isn't "canon" these days.
They're really just muddying the waters even further for now, and who knows if/how/when it may all wash out.
They're trying to tempt their longtime readers back without alienating those they've gained since 2011, which is understandable. What is the point of getting 48 year old Jim (who loved Wally West as Flash) back, if 24 year old Jimmy (who's a big fan of post-reboot Barry Allen) immediately quits?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:54 pm

tony ingram wrote:They're trying to tempt their longtime readers back without alienating those they've gained since 2011, which is understandable. What is the point of getting 48 year old Jim (who loved Wally West as Flash) back, if 24 year old Jimmy (who's a big fan of post-reboot Barry Allen) immediately quits?
I realize they're trying to make everybody happy, but sometimes that approach can just as easily seem like a cop out to both Jim and Jimmy, meaning nobody's really satisfied in the long run.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:59 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:They're trying to tempt their longtime readers back without alienating those they've gained since 2011, which is understandable. What is the point of getting 48 year old Jim (who loved Wally West as Flash) back, if 24 year old Jimmy (who's a big fan of post-reboot Barry Allen) immediately quits?
I realize they're trying to make everybody happy, but sometimes that approach can just as easily seem like a cop out to both Jim and Jimmy, meaning nobody's really satisfied in the long run.
I'm fortunate enough at the moment to be both Jim and Jimmy.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by MajorHoy on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:35 am

tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:They're trying to tempt their longtime readers back without alienating those they've gained since 2011, which is understandable. What is the point of getting 48 year old Jim (who loved Wally West as Flash) back, if 24 year old Jimmy (who's a big fan of post-reboot Barry Allen) immediately quits?
I realize they're trying to make everybody happy, but sometimes that approach can just as easily seem like a cop out to both Jim and Jimmy, meaning nobody's really satisfied in the long run.
I'm fortunate enough at the moment to be both Jim and Jimmy.
Multiple personality disorder?
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:54 am

MajorHoy wrote:
Multiple personality disorder?
No thanks, I've already got one.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:56 pm

tony ingram wrote:Surely the fact that DC basically admitted that they were wrong to go the New 52 route and are now systematically undoing it counts for something?

I didn't really have a problem with the New 52, my problem was how they treat(ed) creators.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:57 pm

MajorHoy wrote:meaning nobody's really satisfied in the long run.

With comic fans, many of them, this is often true anyway.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:55 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Surely the fact that DC basically admitted that they were wrong to go the New 52 route and are now systematically undoing it counts for something?

I didn't really have a problem with the New 52, my problem was how they treat(ed) creators.
And that doesn't seem to have improved, if what appears to be their persistent baiting of Alan Moore is anything to go by...
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:08 pm

tony ingram wrote:And that doesn't seem to have improved, if what appears to be their persistent baiting of Alan Moore is anything to go by...

Right, and that is my problem with it all. SOME of the new stuff looks interesting, but not as much as they'd have to to get me over being mad at their business practices.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:29 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:And that doesn't seem to have improved, if what appears to be their persistent baiting of Alan Moore is anything to go by...

Right, and that is my problem with it all. SOME of the new stuff looks interesting, but not as much as they'd have to to get me over being mad at their business practices.
I can understand that, but for the most part it's not actually the creative types who are responsible for those practices. I mean, I doubt Dan Abnett, for instance, is out there hatching plots. He's just quietly writing good comics.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Mbast1 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:40 pm

tony ingram wrote:I can understand that, but for the most part it's not actually the creative types who are responsible for those practices. I mean, I doubt Dan Abnett, for instance, is out there hatching plots. He's just quietly writing good comics.

Right, and I get that, that I'm not buying things that pays writers and artists (letterers, editors, colorists...) I like. But I just am tired of reading about DC pissing on (or off) creators, simply because as publisher they think they can.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:I can understand that, but for the most part it's not actually the creative types who are responsible for those practices. I mean, I doubt Dan Abnett, for instance, is out there hatching plots. He's just quietly writing good comics.

Right, and I get that, that I'm not buying things that pays writers and artists (letterers, editors, colorists...) I like. But I just am tired of reading about DC pissing on (or off) creators, simply because as publisher they think they can.
It is infuriating, I just think it's worth mentally separating the decent creatives working for the company and the work they're putting out from the executives who are making these decisions.
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by Lucy McGough on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 am

But it's the executives who are getting all the money Sad
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Re: Will You be Buying the Watchmen Prequels?

Post by tony ingram on Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:48 am

Lucy McGough wrote:But it's the executives who are getting all the money Sad
Well, the creators are still making a living out of it, so long as we're supporting them I guess.
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