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Other TV shows apart from Dr Who.

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Post by alanultron5 Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:17 pm

As this forum has a Dr Who section, I hope this thread can give members a chance to say what other TV shows intrigued them-or that they enjoyed!

For me, the 1960s early 70s was the period that certain telly shows made a great impact on me!

I liked `absurdist` comedy such as "Do not adjust your set" "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" and Spike Milligans "Q" series!

Of Drama /Sci-Fi Well, as a youngster (11 years in 1966) "Mystery and Imagination" terrified me! I also loved "The Prisoner" and "Object Z"

Of US sci-fi shows, though I quite liked "Star Trek" (It replaced DR Who from July to Dec 1969) it was "The Invaders" that really impressed me! Looking at that show today, it does have its faults and has dated in some ways-but it isen't the out-and-out `period piece` that some 1960s shows have become. "Batman" for instance is so 1960s! I liked a few of the episodes of Batman at the time-but it went very absurd later on and I got bored with it!

I very much enjoyed "The Monkees" TV series-particulary the second (and more `way-out`) series! Especially when tracks from the "Pisces, Aquarius etc" album were aired!

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Post by tony ingram Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:40 pm

The Prisoner was a classic, I agree-and I also have a soft spot for Doomwatch, the original Survivors, The saint, The Persuaders and later the wonderfully bleak Blake's 7, the wonderfully daft Kinvig and the frankly baffling The Omega Factor, as well as kids shows Timeslip, Sky, Children of the Stones, Moondial, The Ghosts of Motley Hall, The Tomorrow People, Chocky and Catweazle, amongst others. Star Trek...well, I was a fan of the original series, and I rather liked Deep Space 9, but I wasn't much of a fan of the other eighties/nineties interpretations and I hated Enterprise.

I do watch stuff other than SF and fantasy, by the way... Embarassed
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Post by GBF Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:45 pm

Babylon Five for me - very underated. I even bought the box set which, for me, is VERY unusual! Like Alan, I thought 'The Invaders' was superb - even though it's Quin Martin's Sci-Fi version of 'The Fugitive'...which, thinking about it was quite good too!
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Post by GBF Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:47 pm

I used to watch 'Catweazle' with my little sister - all that 'electrickery' was great. And the Clangers, Poguls's Wood...
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Post by tony ingram Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:52 pm

Catweazle is now apparently out on DVD. I may treat myself when I next have a few quid spare. There was a lot of great kids telly around at that time. Even cartoon shorts like Ivor the Engine and Paddington had a certain classiness about them. Possibly the most unintentionally disturbing kids show ever, though, was Pipkins. OK, it was a show about puppets, but compared to his more wholesome counterparts on the Sooty Show and the like, the ragged, rather dodgy looking Hartley Hare was really not the kind of character you'd want to meet in a dark alley.
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Post by kembel Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:11 pm

Blakes 7, The New Avengers, Return Of The Saint, Children Of The Stones, Battle Of The Planets, the original Spiderman cartoon series, Land Of the Giants...um...The Double Deckers...

Any 70's government Public Information Film was wonderful, inc Rolf Harris ("kids in water, they LOVE IT)
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Post by felneymike Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:16 pm

Hmm, when i was young i can remember liking Thomas The Tank Engine... apparently i also liked Thundercats but can't remember a thing about it, and now i hate it because of the people that do like it, just like anything apple!
Later on there was a TV show called something like "Texas Tom", it was like a science fiction western with a sherrif who could turn into animals or something.
There was also an uber-spooky live action series called Landforms that scared the crap out of me in the first few episodes, but then became very silly.
There was also a series called Dog Tanian, which was like the story of the Three Musketeers but with dogs, in anime style. There was a couple of other anime style shows (don't know if they were actually Japanese or not, or merely influenced by it) which used the same voice actors, which usually included groups of old men (or dogs) humming and hah-ing like William Hartnell... those hums summed up the anime style for me for years! I don't remember anything about the other two shows though, except one involved robots and a bullet train nearly crashing, and the other had a lighthouse in it.
I also liked Rainbow, i remember in "my era" of it the bloke had a hot rod Reliant!
I also vaguely remember some wackily PC series about a girl who dropped bubblegum on her computer which typed in the code to hack into a satellite and made her get non-stop video confrencing with other random people around the world (on 14.4 modems!), they then formed an international crime-busting gang. One show involved the French member of it seeing somebody using a suitcase camera to copy the Mona Lisa, and then in some other place people were turning the photos into replicas. Pretty contrived way of getting around buying a postcard from the museum shop if you ask me...
I also very vaguely remember the 90's version of The Tomorrow People, i thought it was awful.
There was also two cartoons of Sonic The Hedgehog, a good one and a terrible "dark" one, i liked the first one because i have taste and sense, but idiots loved the dark one instead.
Later on we got SKY (in an era when most people just had terrerstrial or people in cities could get "cable" which had different channels to sky!) and watched loads of wierd stuff normal people hadn't heard of. The best of the wierd stuff was called Swat Kats, which involved two pilots who had been kicked out of the air force in some city-state, so they lived in a junk yard and built thier own far-superior plane to protect the city with. If you want me to describe it in the form of late 60's/early 70's British comics - it was like an airborne I Spy!
Later on there was a prime time spy/gadget series called Bugs that was OK.

Erk, there's probably loads i've forgot...

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Post by tony ingram Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:21 pm

Dogtanian & the Three Muskerhounds. Heh, I'd forgotten that. Very Happy And I have to say, Kembel-I loved Return of the Saint and The New Avengers, too! Return of the Saint had one of the most memorable theme tunes ever, I think-up there with Doctor Who, Blake's 7 and the Incredible Hulk's 'the lonely man' end piece...
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Post by felneymike Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Oh yeah and of course Thunderbirds, Stingray and Captain Scarlet (we didn't realise these were a good 30 years old when we saw them... i remember a teacher asking me to write a story and i stole the story from a Thunderbirds episode because "she won't have watched it")
I also liked The Man From UNCLE, The Avengers/New Avengers and, if i had been good, The Professionals on Sky late at night!

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Post by tony ingram Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:39 pm

The Professionals.
What did those guys have against fruit and veg stalls, anyway?
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Post by kembel Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:02 pm

Does anyone here remember a one off Sci - fi/fantasy/horror thing starring Hewell Bennet (he of Shelly) and Sting?

It was called Artemis 81 and was broadcast over the Christmas hols in 1981 lasting about 3 hours. Complete and utter bonkers, I didn't have a clue what was going on at the time it was broadcast. It was never repeated but the Beeb released it on DVD last year, and having made such an unfathomable impression on me, I just had to get it. It's still completely bonkers, but at least I get the gist of a storyline now and I really like it.
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Post by tony ingram Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:10 pm

I saw that! Never seen it since, I may have to track it down.
One thing I did get hold of recently were the two play for today's The Flipside of Dominic Hide and Another Flip For Dominic. Why don't they make TV like that anymore?
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Post by Hourglass Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 pm

I love the current Sherlock Holmes series on ITV 3. It's really quite a nice adaptation.
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Post by alanultron5 Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:42 pm

Some great input here! Most of Tony's faves; I very much liked as well!

As an 11 year old -i had awful nightmares from two "Mystery and Imagination" stories; "Lost Hearts" and "The Beckoning Shadow" In the former, the ghostly children tear out the villians heart with their fingernails! God!! It was so much stronger than BBC's 1973 "Ghost story for Christmas" adaptation! Midlands regional programme "Midland Member" discussed the amounts of `horror` in that episode with parents and Producer Jonathan Alwyn.

"The Beckoning Shadow"! featured a skeletal like creature that formed in the dark recesses of a house where a murder took place! Gave me the jitters for weeks!

Re the "Invaders" This series caused an outcry in the US when it ended without a resolution. In the states falling ratings are terminal! Anyhow, in 1981 I was at a "Prisoner" convention up in Portmerion.

We met some Americans and Canadians who were fans too! One chap was called Phil Wendikos and he said his uncle had been comissioned to write a two-part finale for the `Invaders`

It was supposed to end when the `friendly` aliens that Vincent got to safety (On a Saucer to their planet) in the episode "The Life Seekers" convinced the majority of their people that the expeditionary force and the `war-like` faction had deceived them about humanities worth!

They had also discovered another world that was like their own world was in its early life! Hence no need to make war on Earth! Actor Barry Morse had been contacted to appear again as the friendly `leader` alien, but ABC pulled finances before it could come to fruition!

Its hearsay-but seems a logical way to end the series! I believe it was how it was to end, certainly!

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Post by tony ingram Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:42 pm

A great shame we never saw that ending. A lot of those old sixties shows seem never to have had a proper ending. Did the little people ever escape the giants? Did Doug and tony ever get back to their own time? We'll never know, it seems...
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Post by Hourglass Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:58 pm

When I was young, there was this Canadian series called the Odyssey on. A very surreal series about a boy trying to escape from a world which his conciseness is trapped in whilst he's in a coma, a world in which there are no adults and is run almost like a Nazi state by gangs. It was actually very very dark and quite deep for the type of audience it was reaching for.
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Post by tony ingram Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:35 pm

I vaguely remember that, though I don't think I ever saw all of it. It ran for several years, didn't it? A bit disturbing in places, but very well done, I think.
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Post by Hourglass Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:49 pm

I think it ran for over 3 years and yeh it was disturbing. The company who just made it have a mail order DVD option for it so I've just sent off for a copy.
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Post by alanultron5 Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:14 am

Anyone remember "Ace of Wands" ? It was replaced by the "Tomorrow People" in 1973. A couple of stories were superb! Both written by P.J Hammond. "Peacock Pie" Featured Brian (`Foggy` from Last of the Summer Wine`) as a man "Mr Peacock" who could project illusions into peoples minds!

"The Beautiful People" featured three superhuman young adults `J` `M` and `K` who caused ordinary household appliances to become deadly machines! The final moments of this last "Ace of Wands" series were really dramatic! The three `beings` are depleted and head home to "Mama and Papa" who will rejuvinate them. Tarrow and friends follow them to a large stately mansion.

Breaking inside, Tarrow & Co find the three on couches and linked up to ultra-sci-fi machinery. Equipment that has no equal on Earth! Tarrows mate`Chas` fixes small explosive charges to disable the machines-however-the machinery blows the whole house up in an enormous detonation! That was the final "Ace of Wands! what an ending! It was rather similar to the finale of "Operation I. Spy" in Sparky!

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Post by tony ingram Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:35 am

I remember Ace of Wands! A terrific little show, and again I don't think it was ever repeated, at least in full.

The Tomorrow People was a show I watched religiously in the seventies, and I've since bought them all on DVD. I'd recommend the DVDs to anyone purely for the commentaries, which are absolutely hilarious; the actors appear not to have had a very high opinion of the series' creator, and their anecdotes about making the show on a budget of about £1.25 per episode are just wonderful.
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Post by Hourglass Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:26 pm

Did you ever try the audios by BF tony? If so were they any good
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Post by tony ingram Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:35 pm

Hourglass wrote:Did you ever try the audios by BF tony? If so were they any good
Tomorrow People? Only the first couple, but I quite enjoyed them, yes.

Peter Davison's first ever TV appearance was in The Tomorrow People...
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Post by Hourglass Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:43 pm

Really, which episode? Ive the box set, must have missed him. God my sight is poor Sad
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Post by tony ingram Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:50 pm

Hourglass wrote:Really, which episode? Ive the box set, must have missed him. God my sight is poor Sad
He plays an alien hillbilly named Elmer in the third season episode 'A Man for Emily', broadcast April 1975.
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Post by Hourglass Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:02 pm

Its a better role than his Hitchhikers guide one Very Happy
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Post by tony ingram Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:29 pm

Hourglass wrote:Its a better role than his Hitchhikers guide one Very Happy
'May I urge you sir to consider my liver?'
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Post by felneymike Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:26 pm

tony ingram wrote:I saw that! Never seen it since, I may have to track it down.
One thing I did get hold of recently were the two play for today's The Flipside of Dominic Hide and Another Flip For Dominic. Why don't they make TV like that anymore?

I saw the start of the first one when i was at uni, but had to go to bed... but then stayed awake all night wondering how it ended! Didn't know there was a sequel too, i'll have to look out for them.

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Post by alanultron5 Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:14 am

The first two seasons of the Tomorrow People were `semi-serios` but then went over to comedy really! The one with Peter Davidson and Sandra Dickinson was just OTT! Then we got the Drummer from `Flintlock` as one of the cast - time T' jump ship!!

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Post by tony ingram Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:29 am

alanultron5 wrote:The first two seasons of the Tomorrow People were `semi-serios` but then went over to comedy really! The one with Peter Davidson and Sandra Dickinson was just OTT! Then we got the Drummer from `Flintlock` as one of the cast - time T' jump ship!!
Mike Bell wasn't bad, though I preffered his predecessor I never really minded the semi comedic tone of the later Tomorrow People episodes; it was probably for the best given the limited budget they had available (serious sci-fi drama on a kids TV budget being almost impossible to pull off) and at least Nicholas Young always played it dead straight as John.
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Post by Sandhopper Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:37 pm

My desert island thirty (yeah, I know) would probably look something like this:

24
Babylon 5
Blakes 7
Callan
Columbo
Crusade
Dad’s Army
Doctor Who
Doomwatch
FlashForward
Frasier
Hustle
Lost
Millennium
Morecambe and Wise
Monty Python’s Flying Circus
One Foot in the Grave
Quatermass
Sapphire and Steel
Seinfeld
Sherlock Holmes (Jeremy Brett)
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Steptoe and Son
Survivors (original)
The Avengers
The Prisoner
The X Files
Twin Peaks
Vic Reeves Big Night Out
Waking the Dead


...And even then I'm missing out loads of one-off serials and single plays. I like a lot of stuff.

But once I started reading the "classic comedy" thread here, there were a lot of things I was reminded of that really had to go in my list. Dad's Army is probably the best of that lot, but how could I leave behind Steptoe or M&W?

Anyway, the priority is for longer-running shows, to keep me occupied on that desert island. Not being trapped on one right now, I sometimes wish I didn't like so many so many longer-running shows...
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Post by tony ingram Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:45 pm

You're stuck on a desert island. And you're taking Lost with you? Shocked
And if the guys on Lost were listening to desert Island Discs, the whole fabric of reality would start to unravel...
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Post by Sandhopper Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:56 pm

I think that already started to happen in series five...

The irony of that choice had struck me. But being stuck on a desert island, the hope that someone like Evangeline Lily might emerge from behind a palm tree wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Post by tony ingram Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:12 pm

Sandhopper wrote:I think that already started to happen in series five...

The irony of that choice had struck me. But being stuck on a desert island, the hope that someone like Evangeline Lily might emerge from behind a palm tree wouldn't be a bad thing.
With your luck, you'd get Ben Gunn instead.
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Post by Sandhopper Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:20 pm

I dunno - I got my own Scarlett. Smile

For conversation it would have to be Locke. Although with that might come an uncertainty that I'd even make it to the end of the first day...
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Post by MR X Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:50 pm

TV in the 60s was like from another planet compared to today: b/w for a start, very harsh on the eyes, with millions of people watching the likes of Hughie Green or Mike and Bernie Winters, now unknown to great swathes of the public.

My fave show of the 60s was definately the AVENGERS -----especially with Diana Rigg-----great theme music and eccentric poltlines of a never-never Britain of tea on the lawn. The '69 THORSON shows weren't bad either.

The early 70s gave us TIMESLIP, which was an ATV timetravel drama that actually equalled DOCTOR WHO in my estimation.....throughout the 70s THE GOODIES was definately my favourite comedy, with it's highly visual, surrealist humour, and PYTHON was fine as well, though a lot of the wordplay went over my head at the time.

CHANNEL FOUR was great from '82-late 80s, but for me the rot set in once multichannel telly became the norm: I feel there is only so much talent out there, and it is stretched far too thin over too many fragmented channels.


Although I reckon TV standards have inevitably dropped, the overall standard wasn't quite as bad as I feared when I finally revisited telly at a relatives' house over Christmas........too many ad breaks on ITV, though!
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Post by tony ingram Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:27 pm

Another Timeslip fan! I knew there must be one! I have this on DVD, and it's still terrific. Shame they lost the colour prints of all but one episode, though-it wasn't made to be shown in black & white...
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Post by MR X Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:10 pm

I saw TIMESLIP first time round, Tony, in 1970-71, and of course my memories are in black-and-white, as that's how I saw it originally. It was repeated in 1973 but my area in Scotland never recieved this, although many fans would have seen it in colour for the first time.

Any particular favourite story of the four? 'Time of the icebox' held great drama for me, even if it was a bit studio-bound.
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Post by tony ingram Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:15 am

Definitely Time of the Icebox, though they were all pretty good (the only one I couldn't quite get into first time around was Year of the Burn Up). I still think the twist with the Colonel being their real enemy was clever.
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Post by alanultron5 Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:25 pm

"Day of the Clones" with the revelation that `Traynor` was a clone and the real one was held captive!

I am in a minority in that i'm one of the few people who love adaptations of Victorian & Edwardian `ghost stories` As I mentioned earlier- "Mystery and Imagination" was incredibly scary to me back in 1966-68.

I quite liked "Shades of Darkness" too, circa 1983-86 but some of those were rather `placid`. Of course, the BBC "Ghost Story for Christmas" was a yearly highlight. 1973s "Lost Hearts" sadly, nowhere as scary as the 1966 "M& I" offering!

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Post by martinsteinrip Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:23 am

Tony---

Despite our differences on the DC comics themed boards, I never realized how much we have in common in our interest in television shows.

In the early 1980s the American cable channel Nickelodeon ran both the entire run of the original Tomorrow People and also created an anthology series called The Third Eye, which ran kids' science fiction shows from the U.K. and New Zealand. This is where I first encountered a lot of great British sci-fi. The series shown under the Third Eye banner were Children of the Stones, Into the Labyrinth, The Haunting of Cassie Palmer, Under the Mountain and The Witches and the Grinnygog.

I'm amazed at how much of a cult following Children of the Stones maintains. This show in particular inspired a bit of a personal odyssey. It was just after my mother had died, and I was a composer doing my doctorate in New York, and I was obviously very unhappy. To console myself I found a tape trader who had all the Third Eye episodes and I acquired them. I was stunned by the quality of the underscores of these programs, especially Children of the Stones, which featured a nearly entirely a capella choir singing creepy, wordless atonal music. I was so impressed with the score that I started writing a music theory paper on it. I also got to know the composer, Sidney Sager (who also composed the music for Into the Labyrinth, King of the Castle, The Clifton House Mystery, and many others).

Sidney thought I should study for a year at the University of Bristol, with his protege, the prolific BBC composer Martin Kiszko. So I did exactly that. While I was there, I also wound up writing a paper on the music of Joe Harnell, who wrote the "Lonely Man Theme" (and all other incidental music) for "The Incredible Hulk." This put me in touch with Harnell, who was teaching at University of Southern California, which is ultimately where I finished my doctorate in composition. But I'm also very interested professionally in music theory, and those two papers I wrote on Sager and Harnell were the first music theory papers I ever wrote (without being assigned).

Nickelodeon did indeed revive The Tomorrow People for the early 90s, but oddly enough, with a bigger budget, the charm was gone, as was the term "jaunting," TIM, and other oddities. By the way, the term "jaunting" comes from the Alfred Bester novel "The Stars My Destination," and is named after Charles Forte Jaunte in the novel, the discoverer of a means of teleportation. I had no idea that the term was somebody's surname, though that makes sense. I thought it was just one of your quaint British understatements: "Oh, I'm just out for a little jaunt tonight [involving teleportation, which is a big deal]." But that's not actually it.

Those of you who have seen Children of the Stones: what do you think of/make of the ending? Satisfied? Dissatisfied? I know Jeremy Burnham, the co-creator, has written a sequel, but he has never found any support for it being made, sadly.

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Post by tony ingram Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:39 am

I loved Children of the Stones. It's one of the enduring memories of my childhood, and I think it still stands up well today despite being very much a product of its time (and having virtually no effects budget). it's incredibly atmospheric and yes, a lot of that is due to that haunting score, though you're the first person I've ever 'met' who has really seemed struck by it; I think we too often tend to simply not notice the score (which probably means it worked in the way it was supposed to, come to think of it).

I'm also somewhat amazed that anyone else remembers Into the Labyrinth! I have the first few episodes on VHS and while it isn't of the same quality as Children of the Stones, I think it's still quite fun, but it seems to have been virtually forgotten! Very Happy

Nice to see you here, BTW.
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Post by Mbast1 Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:08 pm

martinsteinrip wrote:an anthology series called The Third Eye, which ran kids' science fiction shows from the U.K. and New Zealand.

I have almost found the entirety of this series, since you mentioned it to me on the DC boards. It's really interesting so far.

You know, you keep throwing off-handed mentions of really interesting things. This needs to stop. I don't have time to track down all this fascinating stuff!
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Post by tony ingram Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:36 pm

Ever seen The Omega Factor? Or Sky? Twisted Evil
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Post by martinsteinrip Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:50 am

I've seen Sky, as an adult. I liked it well enough but since I never saw it as a kid it didn't have the nostalgia factor. It was cool to see Richard Speight, who also was in The Tomorrow People as time guardian Peter. I've never seen Omega Factor. Do you recommend it? What's it about?

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Post by tony ingram Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:12 am

It's about a journalist, Tom Crane (played by James Hazeldine from Children of the Stones) who develops psychic abilities he can't understand or control, and who is forced into working for a rather sinister Government agency which investigates strange phenomena, but comes to realize they have a hidden agenda. It co-stars Doctor Who's Louise Jameson. It's not a kids' series; in fact, it's almost like a kind of 1970's British X-Files. Well worth checking out.
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Post by Phil Friel Mon May 07, 2012 8:50 pm

This is a fantastic discussion thread. Keep the recommendations coming, 'cos I'm taking note of everything mentioned here.

Many of these shows I barely remember at all, although their names and the feeling that I loved them as a young kid have stuck in my mind all these years. The ones that I do have some concrete recollections of - The Tomorrow People, The Omega Factor, Timeslip, Sky, Kinvig, Children of the Stones - these are all shows that I'd like to track down on DVD.

But the others are also something that I'll almost certainly like as well, and are going on to my list of "things to look out for". Most children's sci-fi series from the pre-1990s are pretty good, some of them better than the so-called "adult" sci-fi shows of the same eras. And they're certainly far superior to most modern kids' sci-fi (what there is of it), most of which I think is silly and badly written, despite having higher production values.

A bit like the modern Doctor Who, in fact. Looks gorgeous and has decent actors, and some decent stories. But it's far too Americanized, frenetically paced, dashing and whizzing around and lots of loud bangs. It's not bad, but simply doesn't have the charm of the classic DW, particularly the 1960s and 1970s.

Most modern series, both adult and kid's, suffer from an obsession with special effects and mindless, frantic energy, to the detriment of building up real storytelling and character development. I miss these old series.

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Post by tony ingram Tue May 08, 2012 7:57 am

A good source for classic British shows like these (and others such as Catweazle and The Ghosts of Motley Hall) is Network DVD. I recommend them. That's where I got Sky, Kinvig, The Omega Factor and Timeslip.
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Post by Phil Friel Tue May 08, 2012 3:39 pm

Thanks Tony. I'll certainly take a look at Network DVD.

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Post by Phil Friel Tue May 08, 2012 4:08 pm

I had to buy Sky from an Amazon seller. Neither it nor Timeslip are available on Network DVD.

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Post by tony ingram Tue May 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Phil Friel wrote:I had to buy Sky from an Amazon seller. Neither it nor Timeslip are available on Network DVD.
Ah. They used to be, but their catalogue does fluctuate. Still, at least you found it!
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