Re: Is the Old DC Universe Returning at Last?

by MajorHoy Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:35 pm

tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
Mbast1 wrote:
You know, honestly, I'm pretty healthy. I just don't like getting old in general. Beats the alternative, as my grandfather used to say, but still.
The alternative being functional immortality?
Or a dysfunctional memory and/or bladder . . .
Oh, I already have both of those!

Both of what? confused

by **tony ingram** Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:01 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
Mbast1 wrote:
You know, honestly, I'm pretty healthy. I just don't like getting old in general. Beats the alternative, as my grandfather used to say, but still.
The alternative being functional immortality?
Or a dysfunctional memory and/or bladder . . .
Oh, I already have both of those!
Both of what?

A dysfunctional...sorry, what was it again...?

by MajorHoy Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:43 am

tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
Mbast1 wrote:
You know, honestly, I'm pretty healthy. I just don't like getting old in general. Beats the alternative, as my grandfather used to say, but still.
The alternative being functional immortality?
Or a dysfunctional memory and/or bladder . . .
Oh, I already have both of those!
Both of what?
A dysfunctional...sorry, what was it again...?

That's okay . . . I have to go use the bathroom/WC anyway . . .

by MajorHoy Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:44 am

I just read somewhere about Scott Snyder's second issue of Justice League where Sinestro has discovered the invisible emotional spectrum (or something like that?) and he's changing John Stewart into an Ultra-Viole(n)t Lantern or something?
And was there an evil baby that Lex Luthor is connected to? (Again, I'm not reading the actual comic book.)

I keep wondering if this is more of the "Hope" stuff Geoff Johns was talking about returning under Rebirth, or if maybe towards the end of Doomsday Cluck is Geoff Johns hoping to return another character who hasn't been seen in decades:
Is the Old DC Universe Returning at Last? - Page 3 739ef50133aab03b5c69062b13299a7f_l

Is the Old DC Universe Returning at Last? - Page 3 739ef50133aab03b5c69062b13299a7f_l

by **tony ingram** Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:02 am

MajorHoy wrote:I just read somewhere about Scott Snyder's second issue of Justice League where Sinestro has discovered the invisible emotional spectrum (or something like that?) and he's changing John Stewart into an Ultra-Viole(n)t Lantern or something?
And was there an evil baby that Lex Luthor is connected to? (Again, I'm not reading the actual comic book.

I am reading it, but I'm still not entirely clear on what's going on...

I have had this trouble with Snyder's stuff before. It sometimes feels like he's skipped a few pages at the beginning of each issue just to keep the readers on their toes. Razz

by MajorHoy Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:58 pm

tony ingram wrote:I am reading it, but I'm still not entirely clear on what's going on...

I have had this trouble with Snyder's stuff before. It sometimes feels like he's skipped a few pages at the beginning of each issue just to keep the readers on their toes.

I think Snyder tends to be one of those writers where you're better off reading several issues in one sitting or just waiting for the tpb collection.
Grant Morrison seemed to be the same way when he was doing his Batman stuff, except with Morrison the wait was worth it.
(With Snyder, there are no guarantees . . . )

by Lucy Ingram Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:38 am

MajorHoy wrote:I just read somewhere about Scott Snyder's second issue of Justice League where Sinestro has discovered the invisible emotional spectrum (or something like that?) and he's changing John Stewart into an Ultra-Viole(n)t Lantern or something?

Yes. That was kind of lame. Apparently the invisible emotional spectrum is all about hatred and rage — but so were/are the Red Lanterns and the Black Lanterns! So it's totally superfluous.

MajorHoy wrote:And was there an evil baby that Lex Luthor is connected to?

Yes. He presented the baby to Grodd saying, "Here is your new partner." (Or words to that effect.) All I know is that it can't be Darkseid because Darkseid is all grown up again (as detailed in the pages of Wonder Woman.) I fail to see what use the sprog will be in a fight, unless Grodd lobs it at an opponent to distract them.

by MajorHoy Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:34 pm

I wonder how soon DC may feel a need for Zero Hour II: Crisis in Management?

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:16 pm

MajorHoy wrote:I wonder how soon DC may feel a need for Zero Hour II: Crisis in Management?

Around 1986, I think.

by **tony ingram** Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:22 pm

MajorHoy wrote:I wonder how soon DC may feel a need for Zero Hour II: Crisis in Management?

Since they currently seem to be doing quite well, probably no time soon.

by MajorHoy Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:57 pm

Y'know, even though more and more, little bits and pieces of the Old DC Universe seem to supposedly be returning (at Last?), it's the parts that I'm really waiting for that seem to be taking forever to make any real comeback. Rolling Eyes

Even when there are "hints", there's really nothing to assure me that what they're bringing back is not going to be altered in a way that will ultimately be unsatisfactory to me.

by **tony ingram** Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:43 pm

MajorHoy wrote:Y'know, even though more and more, little bits and pieces of the Old DC Universe seem to supposedly be returning (at Last?), it's the parts that I'm really waiting for that seem to be taking forever to make any real comeback.
Even when there are "hints", there's really nothing to assure me that what they're bringing back is not going to be altered in a way that will ultimately be unsatisfactory to me.

With respect, I think the problem is they are trying to tell a long story to build up suspense and excitement and anticipation, but you're not really interested in that; you just want them to get to the end and reset the status quo. They're not going to just do that. They're there to sell comics. They want to sell all this build-up. That has to be their priority. They're not trying to antagonise anyone, they're just trying to string it out to tell a longer story and sell more comics, which is what they're there for. As for the end result being unsatsfactory: if you need them to reset everything to exactly where it was in 2011 or 1986 or 1961, of course it's going to be unsatisfactory, because if they did that, they'd alienate newer readers. There has to be a compromise. But I want the JSA back more than anything, and nothing I've seen so far since Rebirth does not give me hope that the JSA we get back are going to be the one I lost. I am optimistic here. I don't see the point of being otherwise.

by MajorHoy Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:31 am

tony ingram wrote: . . . As for the end result being unsatsfactory: if you need them to reset everything to exactly where it was in 2011 or 1986 or 1961, of course it's going to be unsatisfactory, because if they did that, they'd alienate newer readers. There has to be a compromise.

What I meant by "unsatisfactory" is a firm belief that DC will not leave well enough alone and try to change/"improve" the "returning" characters, (Like Geoff Johns deciding Barry needed a dead mommy in his backstory; the concern somebody at DC/WB will decide to make Golden Age Alan Scott gay so as to not offend the few fans of the New 52's Earth 2; the fact that they've kept the "Carter Hall was also Katar Hol" trope and have even decided he was also a Kryptonian at some point in his even more convoluted reincarnated past; etc.)

tony ingram wrote:But I want the JSA back more than anything, and nothing I've seen so far since Rebirth does not give me hope that the JSA we get back are going to be the one I lost. I am optimistic here. I don't see the point of being otherwise.

After more than two years of trying to patiently wait, my optimism needs much stronger glasses to see any sort of light at the end of the tunnel.

by Lucy Ingram Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:15 am

MajorHoy wrote:the fact that they've kept the "Carter Hall was also Katar Hol" trope and have even decided he was also a Kryptonian at some point in his even more convoluted reincarnated past

But that actually makes a lot MORE sense than the original story!

by **tony ingram** Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:25 pm

Lucy McGough wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:the fact that they've kept the "Carter Hall was also Katar Hol" trope and have even decided he was also a Kryptonian at some point in his even more convoluted reincarnated past

But that actually makes a lot MORE sense than the original story!

I agree, it works far better than the previous rather convoluted explanation for two so similar characters existing simultaneously.

by **tony ingram** Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:27 pm

MajorHoy wrote:the concern somebody at DC/WB will decide to make Golden Age Alan Scott gay so as to not offend the few fans of the New 52's Earth 2

I really doubt this. They only made Earth 2 Alan gay because of the absence of Obsidian, who I suspect we'll get back anyway.

by MajorHoy Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:04 pm

tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:the concern somebody at DC/WB will decide to make Golden Age Alan Scott gay so as to not offend the few fans of the New 52's Earth 2
I really doubt this. They only made Earth 2 Alan gay because of the absence of Obsidian, who I suspect we'll get back anyway.

You're either very optimistic or imbibing on something . . .

by **tony ingram** Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:52 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:the concern somebody at DC/WB will decide to make Golden Age Alan Scott gay so as to not offend the few fans of the New 52's Earth 2
I really doubt this. They only made Earth 2 Alan gay because of the absence of Obsidian, who I suspect we'll get back anyway.
You're either very optimistic or imbibing on something . . .

I'm very optimistic. I see no reason not to be. We've seen the Flash family, why would we not get Alan's back?

by MajorHoy Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:54 am

tony ingram wrote:I'm very optimistic. I see no reason not to be. We've seen the Flash family, why would we not get Alan's back?

Well, we've only really seen some of them, and there was the crap they pulled with Jay last year.
Also, while I didn't read Flash #50, what's up with Bart? How many years has it been since he last dressed like that? Hadn't he been "Kid Flash" (and even briefly "The Flash") for the last few years before he disappeared? How much of "Bart" is really "back"?
And, again, after they led us to believe the "JSA" was returning under the New52, only to pull a last-minute "not really!" and instead gave us a faux-"JSA" for Earth 2, I don't trust them to bring the JSA back this time without any "updating" of the members until I actually read the story (if/whenever that happens).
I'm tired of waiting, and I'm tired of them yanking my chain. Until they actually deliver, "trust" is practically non-existent when it comes to DC.

by **tony ingram** Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:16 am

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:I'm very optimistic. I see no reason not to be. We've seen the Flash family, why would we not get Alan's back?
Well, we've only really seen some of them, and there was the crap they pulled with Jay last year.

Yes. You see, the problem here is, you saw that as "the crap they pulled", whereas I saw it as a storyline I enjoyed which was clearly leading up to something. You are approaching all of this from a position of negativity. I don't understand why.

Also, while I didn't read Flash #50, what's up with Bart? How many years has it been since he last dressed like that? Hadn't he been "Kid Flash" (and even briefly "The Flash") for the last few years before he disappeared? How much of "Bart" is really "back"?

For God's sake, it's Bart, he's clearly intended to be the Bart we knew, he's back! What does it take to convince you?

And, again, after they led us to believe the "JSA" was returning under the New52, only to pull a last-minute "not really!" and instead gave us a faux-"JSA" for Earth 2, I don't trust them to bring the JSA back this time without any "updating" of the members until I actually read the story (if/whenever that happens).
I'm tired of waiting, and I'm tired of them yanking my chain. Until they actually deliver, "trust" is practically non-existent when it comes to DC.

They are not yanking your chain. They don't know you exist. And the JSA they've been teasing since Rebirth are clearly the team Wally West remembered, which is the team we remember. Why is this not a good thing?

by MajorHoy Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:22 am

tony ingram wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:Also, while I didn't read Flash #50, what's up with Bart? How many years has it been since he last dressed like that? Hadn't he been "Kid Flash" (and even briefly "The Flash") for the last few years before he disappeared? How much of "Bart" is really "back"?
For God's sake, it's Bart, he's clearly intended to be the Bart we knew, he's back! What does it take to convince you?

But, again, why did he show up dressed the way he did? Is it the complete Bart from before Flashpoint, or is it just a version of Bart missing all those years when he was Kid Flash/The Flash?

by Lucy Ingram Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:02 am

MajorHoy wrote:But, again, why did he show up dressed the way he did? Is it the complete Bart from before Flashpoint, or is it just a version of Bart missing all those years when he was Kid Flash/The Flash?

Good point.

by **tony ingram** Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:40 pm

Lucy McGough wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:But, again, why did he show up dressed the way he did? Is it the complete Bart from before Flashpoint, or is it just a version of Bart missing all those years when he was Kid Flash/The Flash?

Good point.

I am as certain as I can be that this will be the "real" Bart. The reason he's dressed as Impulse? Same reason Wally was in his Kid Flash outfit when he first resurfaced in Rebirth, despite having clearly still lived through his years as Flash: audience identification. Having him show up in the Kid Flash suit said immdediately "this is Wally West, not Barry Allen". Likewise, Bart is still best remembered as Impulse despite those last few years, and there's already someone running around in a Kid Flash suit. There is such a thing as overthinking things.

by MajorHoy Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:59 pm

tony ingram wrote:
Lucy McGough wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:But, again, why did he show up dressed the way he did? Is it the complete Bart from before Flashpoint, or is it just a version of Bart missing all those years when he was Kid Flash/The Flash?
Good point.
I am as certain as I can be that this will be the "real" Bart. The reason he's dressed as Impulse? Same reason Wally was in his Kid Flash outfit when he first resurfaced in Rebirth, despite having clearly still lived through his years as Flash: audience identification. Having him show up in the Kid Flash suit said immdediately "this is Wally West, not Barry Allen". Likewise, Bart is still best remembered as Impulse despite those last few years, and there's already someone running around in a Kid Flash suit. There is such a thing as overthinking things.

It may be the "real" Bart (or not), but is the "real" Wally West you got back in 2016 completely whole or still missing parts of his past? (Hell, even Barry Allen isn't completely whole unless he got married to Iris West and Nora Allen's death was undone when I wasn't reading the bloody book!)
So, again, how much of this "Bart" is the same as the pre-Flashpoint version, or how much of his past has been "edited"/taken away/rewritten? Question

by **tony ingram** Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:25 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
Lucy McGough wrote:
MajorHoy wrote:But, again, why did he show up dressed the way he did? Is it the complete Bart from before Flashpoint, or is it just a version of Bart missing all those years when he was Kid Flash/The Flash?
Good point.
I am as certain as I can be that this will be the "real" Bart. The reason he's dressed as Impulse? Same reason Wally was in his Kid Flash outfit when he first resurfaced in Rebirth, despite having clearly still lived through his years as Flash: audience identification. Having him show up in the Kid Flash suit said immdediately "this is Wally West, not Barry Allen". Likewise, Bart is still best remembered as Impulse despite those last few years, and there's already someone running around in a Kid Flash suit. There is such a thing as overthinking things.
It may be the "real" Bart (or not), but is the "real" Wally West you got back in 2016 completely whole or still missing parts of his past? (Hell, even Barry Allen isn't completely whole unless he got married to Iris West and Nora Allen's death was undone when I wasn't reading the bloody book!)
So, again, how much of this "Bart" is the same as the pre-Flashpoint version, or how much of his past has been "edited"/taken away/rewritten?

The whole point of the last several months worth of issues of Flash has been about Wally (and Iris) recovering his missing memories of his past, which as far as I can see, are now basically restored (his meeting his Aunt Iris opened the floodgates for them both). The only people he may still not remember are Jay and the JSA, and that is clearly a part of the ongoing JSA thing (and probably editorially mandated since Geoff Johns is still dealing with them); Iris even questions whether there are others they've yet to remember. Are you actually reading the book at the moment? I ask because you seem to be making assumptions at variance with what is actually being established in it.

I think you really just want them to abandon the ongoing storylines without explanation and reset everything to a point before Barry's return, and they really can't do that. Not without alienating every reader they've gained in the last ten years. The point is, we now know that all of that stuff originally happened, that the ony reason people remember things differently is because *someone* has changed history, and that several people were protected from those changes because they were outside of normal time and space, and therefore their memories are unaffected. Eobard Thawne and Hunter Zolomon were two of those people, and it seems most likely that Bart Allen was another (and Commander Cold and the Renegades, from their 25th century viewpoint, still had historical records of the pre-2011 timeline, too).

by MajorHoy Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:12 pm

tony ingram wrote:The whole point of the last several months worth of issues of Flash has been about Wally (and Iris) recovering his missing memories of his past, which as far as I can see, are now basically restored (his meeting his Aunt Iris opened the floodgates for them both). The only people he may still not remember are Jay and the JSA, and that is clearly a part of the ongoing JSA thing (and probably editorially mandated since Geoff Johns is still dealing with them); Iris even questions whether there are others they've yet to remember. Are you actually reading the book at the moment? I ask because you seem to be making assumptions at variance with what is actually being established in it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread,

MajorHoy wrote:Well, we've only really seen some of them, and there was the crap they pulled with Jay last year.
Also, while I didn't read Flash #50,

The only issues of The Flash I've actually bought and read under Rebirth were the two issues from "The Button" crossover, and those were less-than-rewarding as far as I was concerned.

tony ingram wrote:I think you really just want them to abandon the ongoing storylines without explanation and reset everything to a point before Barry's return, and they really can't do that.

No, I don't want that. What I want is for them to FINALLY decide and make clear to us what is and what isn't still in "continuity". Unlike you, sir, I was following several DC titles during the New52. Some I enjoyed, others I didn't and gave upon them.
When Rebirth began, it seemed DC was bringing back aspects of the "old" continuity, but during the past TWO YEARS all they've really accomplished is hinting at past things without committing to what has definitely changed back and what has remained as it was under the New 52. They told us the JSA was returning, but again, that was two years ago that first was brought up and all we've had is glimpses and hints with no resolution to that likely anytime this year. We're left expecting/hoping this will all be resolved when Doomsday Cluck finally wraps up, but how many times has DC work by Johns been delayed and then not even ended the way he originally talked about? Who's to say he won't have a change of plans and not bring the JSA back in Doomsday Cluck, but will instead use that end to set up a new maxi-series: The Search for the JSA?
I don't trust Geoff Johns; I don't trust DC; and I really have not enjoyed many of the "improvements" they supposedly have brought about over the past year or two.

by **tony ingram** Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:58 pm

But it was made pretty clear when Rebirth was published that it was the beginning of a long range plan that would take at least two years to set up! They haven't lied. And they have committed to returning several aspects of the past: Wally West's history, Lois and Clark's history, the Doom Patrol's history, all of that is back!

by MajorHoy Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:42 pm

tony ingram wrote:But it was made pretty clear when Rebirth was published that it was the beginning of a long range plan that would take at least two years to set up! They haven't lied. And they have ommitted to returning several aspects of the past: Wally West's history, Lois and Clark's history, the Doom Patrol's history, all of that is back!

Interesting spelling there. Laughing

I don't remember them saying "at least two years"; I thought it was more like just "two years" or possibly "about two years". It's now looking like it might be at least three years or longer, but god only knows at this point.
From what I understand, Wally West's history is still an unresolved sore spot with some fans; Lois and Clark's history had this bizarre half-assed merger of the New52 version with the Convergence version; and, again, outside of the recent Young Animal "pop-up imprint" series, how much has the Doom Patrol been mentioned/involved in books outside of the Young Animal line?

And for the record, I've tried several titles under Rebirth:
* Action Comics = #957-1000 (dropped when Bendis took over)
* Bane: Conquest = #1 - 5 (gave up not quite halfway through)
* Batgirl <still buying, but have to see what the new writer does>
* Batgirl & the Birds of Prey = Rebirth #1; #1-6; #11-13 (just not happy with the writing)
* Batman = bought a few issues here and there (hated Tom King's "writing")
* Detective Comics = #934-941 (Tynion's lust affair with Timmy! was embarrassing, and I felt the overall story was bad)
* The Flash = #21-22 (only for "The Button" crossover and the hope Jay would return for more than just a few pages)
* Green Arrow = Rebirth #1, #1-5 (Ben Percy's "writing" seemed nonsensical and pointless)
* Justice League #22 (Shea Fontana, who would be writing a Wonder Woman arc after Rucka's run, did a meaningless fill-in issue )
* New Super-Man = #7 - 19 (actually an entertaining book; I was going to start trade-waiting it, but then it got cancelled and I decided not to)
* Nightwing = Rebirth #1; #1-5; #9-14 (just overall not worth it to me)
* Supergirl = Rebirth #1 and #1-6 (not a fan of either the art or Orlando's writing)
* Superman = Rebirth #1; #1-6 in tpb; #16-28 (not as much a fan of Tomasi's writing)
* Superwoman = #1-9 (gave up when Kate Perkins took over as writer)
* Trinity = #1-8 (just a mediocre effort)
* Wonder Woman = Rebirth #1, #1-37 (liked Rucka's run; Shea Fontana's arc was "meh"; Robinson's arc starring Jason and Grail with special guest appearances by Diana was the final straw)
Plus The Terrifics (#1-3) and The Immortal Men (which I'm likely to drop soon).
So it's not like I haven't given this a chance.

by **tony ingram** Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:12 pm

But they are resolving Wally's history, right now! That is the whole point of what they have been doing in Flash!

Ten of the books you list as having given up on because they aren't working for you have been books I've been thoroughly enjoying for months, I think they're very well written. And what is "half assed" about what they've done with Superman? As far as I can see, everything is back!

by MajorHoy Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:45 pm

tony ingram wrote:But they are resolving Wally's history, right now! That is the whole point of what they have been doing in Flash!

Ten of the books you list as having given up on because they aren't working for you have been books I've been thoroughly enjoying for months, I think they're very well written. And what is "half assed" about what they've done with Superman? As far as I can see, everything is back!

How did they "resolve" Wally's history with "Flash War"? confused

by **tony ingram** Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:58 am

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:But they are resolving Wally's history, right now! That is the whole point of what they have been doing in Flash!

Ten of the books you list as having given up on because they aren't working for you have been books I've been thoroughly enjoying for months, I think they're very well written. And what is "half assed" about what they've done with Superman? As far as I can see, everything is back!
How did they "resolve" Wally's history with "Flash War"?

The whole point of it, as far as I can see, is that Wally and Iris now remember everything that happened before Flashpoint, and we know that all the missing people who were parts of it, the twins, Max, Jesse and Bart, still exist somewhere, waiting to be found. Bart has already broken free of wherever the others are being kept. Wally may still be living in the new timeline, but he knows what's changed and he remembers his former life. Even Linda Park knows. Isn't that pretty much resolved?

by MajorHoy Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:36 pm

tony ingram wrote:The whole point of it, as far as I can see, is that Wally and Iris now remember everything that happened before Flashpoint, and we know that all the missing people who were parts of it, the twins, Max, Jesse and Bart, still exist somewhere, waiting to be found. Bart has already broken free of wherever the others are being kept. Wally may still be living in the new timeline, but he knows what's changed and he remembers his former life. Even Linda Park knows. Isn't that pretty much resolved?

Missing kids . . . missing friends . . . doesn't exactly sound "resolved" to me.
(And any mention of Jay?)

So, Wally and Linda are back together as a couple now?

by **tony ingram** Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:29 pm

MajorHoy wrote:
tony ingram wrote:The whole point of it, as far as I can see, is that Wally and Iris now remember everything that happened before Flashpoint, and we know that all the missing people who were parts of it, the twins, Max, Jesse and Bart, still exist somewhere, waiting to be found. Bart has already broken free of wherever the others are being kept. Wally may still be living in the new timeline, but he knows what's changed and he remembers his former life. Even Linda Park knows. Isn't that pretty much resolved?
Missing kids . . . missing friends . . . doesn't exactly sound "resolved" to me.
(And any mention of Jay?)

So, Wally and Linda are back together as a couple now?

They're taking it one step at a time, I think. But I suspect that you won't consider anything to be resoved until the story you aren't interisted in is over and the pre-2011 status quo fully restored...

As for Jay, no, very deliberately not mentioned (although Iris is clearly aware there's someone unaccounted for). I suspect they aren't allowed to use him until after the JSA situation is resolved elsewhere.

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