Who Are Your Favourite Classic Avengers?

I've been re-reading some old Avengers stories lately and it's made me realize all over again how much I prefer the Avengers of the 70s and early 80s, particularly the Steve Englehart stuff, than the stories of the last decade. I think a big part of that is that I really have quite a fixed view of which characters actually belong in the team, and I can't really expand that somehow to include characters like Spider-Man, Wolverine, Spider-Woman and Luke Cage. To me, the Avengers are not street level heroes, they're the ones who handle the big stuff! So, am I right or wrong? Who does everyone think are the definitive Avengers lineup? I've included a poll, but it's fairly limited, obviously, so feel free to nominate versions I've missed out.

My personal definitive line-up is the one from the Englehart 'Celestial Madonna' saga: Thor, Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet With, the Swordsman, Mantis and Hawkeye.

Well, MY "definitive" Avengers comes from this era right here:



That was actually my first Avengers comic, you see, bought from the back issue boxes by my young self because it had the most striking cover, or something (kids are dumb). I'm still impressed by the story in this one, and it prompted me to get a bunch of other ones from around the same time (I didn't like the then-current team, which I think had Sersi and everybody was wearing the same jacket and the art was AWFUL, so it was nice to have some old Avengers to turn to instead).

I never read the Englehart stuff, but I imagine I can get it in a trade or something, right? I've heard nothing but good things.

That period from #211 to about the mid eighties was a really good one for the Avengers. Hank Pym's whole journey from downfall to redemption was great, it's a shame later writers completely screwed him up as a character. Few have been as misused as Hank.

tony ingram wrote:That period from #211 to about the mid eighties was a really good one for the Avengers. Hank Pym's whole journey from downfall to redemption was great, it's a shame later writers completely screwed him up as a character. Few have been as misused as Hank.

Oh, I know. There's a stigma about him that I don't think he'll ever be able to shake, especially if the rumors I'm hearing are true and he's the VILLAIN in Edgar Wright's "Ant-Man".

I think the villain rumour may have been a misunderstanding. But I agree about the stigma. As with so many things, I blame Bendis.

I remember liking Bendis when he was fresh, new voice in Ultimate Spider-Man...but then he became the ONLY voice. And it was always snarky.

Sam_Vimes wrote:I remember liking Bendis when he was fresh, new voice in Ultimate Spider-Man...but then he became the ONLY voice. And it was always snarky.

And every character he writes has that same snarky voice. Even the ones who never were before. Spider-Woman, Carol Danvers, Iron Fist, all have the same basically jaded and cynical personality now, thanks to him. Or is it just that that is what modern audiences expect from all their fictional heroes these days?  

Sadly, I think it is. We'll be having a jaded and cynical Superman any day now.

(Hmmm... was that a jaded and cynical thing for me to say? Oh crumbs, now I'm confused.)

Lucy McGough wrote:Sadly, I think it is. We'll be having a jaded and cynical Superman any day now.

Actually, that was how Man of Steel came across to me. A Superman who actually seems overwhelmed by what's going on around him.

Fortunately, I can't remember much of that movie. It was awfully... grey.

I severed all ties with Superman in September 2011, and from what I hear, I don't think I've missed much.

Apart from him making love to Wonder Woman.

Lucy McGough wrote:Apart from him making love to Wonder Woman.

I would say "William Moulton Marston would be turning in his grave". Except that by all accounts, he'd probably thoroughly approve...

Especially if bondage gear was involved. Was it?

Lucy McGough wrote:Especially if bondage gear was involved. Was it?

For that kind of detail, you'd need to ask someone who bought it!

Anyway: who are your favourite Avengers?

My favourite era was the early 70s. The first issue I read was #112 by Steve Englehart and Don Heck, witjh the Lion God - one of Heck's better efforts and Frank Bolle was an underrated inker. I lost interest when Tom DeFalco filled in for a couple of issues, then David Michelinie's run was a big disappointment despite nice artwork and I didn't think Jim Shooter's second run was a patch on his first. Shooter claimed the Hank Pym wife-beating thing wasn't his fault and the artist Bob Hall had over-dramatised a panel that had been plotted as Hank accidentally slapping Jan while making a gesture.


I thought Roger Stern and Kurt Busiek's runs were pretty good. I hated Brian Micheal Bendis's pacing and disregard for continuity, and Spider-Man and Wolverine have no business becoming Avengers.

I think "over dramatising" is something of an understatement. I'd forgotten how violent that scene was.   

I completely agree regarding Bendis (and, indeed, Spider-Man and Wolverine as Avengers. And Spider Woman, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Dr Strange, for that matter). I have never understood why Bendis is so highly regarded as a writer. I've never forgiven him for Spider Woman: Origin!

I've never heard of Spider Woman: Origin before. What did you dislike about it?

Philip K Ditko wrote:I've never heard of Spider Woman: Origin before.  What did you dislike about it?

Basically, in the space of one five issue series, Bendis totally rewrote Spider-Woman's origin in such a way that most of her early appearances just couldn't have happened-and because the man is totally clueless about Marvel continuity and how interconnected everything tends to be, the repercussions of his rewrite should logically have impacted on the lives of several other major characters including Adam Warlock,  Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, since his creation of a new version of Edgar Wyndham in that series pretty much negated the High Evolutionary as a character. He later did something similar with the Beyonder, basically trying to write off Secret Wars II as all a big hoax perpetrated by a confused mutant Inhuman, clearly without having a clue that the story had significantly impacted on several ongoing series' at the time and that the Beyonder had returned later. The man is a moron. And so are the "editors" who don't know enough to correct him.

Editors? CORRECT things? Pfft. They don't have time for that!

I don't really understand what editors do, these days. They don't seem to actually edit...

Late 70s/early 80s.

I really enjoyed the expanded line-ups and that finally the teams had more women on them than the typical token one.

Wasn't it around this time that the Wasp became a team leader?

karatattoo wrote:Late 70s/early 80s.

I really enjoyed the expanded line-ups and that finally the teams had more women on them than the typical token one.

Wasn't it around this time that the Wasp became a team leader?

Yes, shortly before the first Secret Wars, late 1983 or very early '84, I think.

tigra. ant man

indybrand13 wrote:tigra.  ant man

Now would that be the original Ant Man, or Scott Lang?

the original..

indybrand13 wrote:the original..

I like Pym, but I always preferred him as Goliath rather than Ant Man, personally. Possibly because that's how I first got to know him.

We always imprint on the first incarnation of a character we encounter. Then a bit later we discover that everyone else thinks of those versions as fake or substandard. I like the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, and blue electric Superman, and Wally West as the Flash, and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. And, although it's not the same thing, I prefer Plastic Man to the Elongated Man, and Zauriel to Hawkman.

Lucy McGough wrote:We always imprint on the first incarnation of a character we encounter. Then a bit later we discover that everyone else thinks of those versions as fake or substandard. I like the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, and blue electric Superman, and Wally West as the Flash, and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. And, although it's not the same thing, I prefer Plastic Man to the Elongated Man, and Zauriel to Hawkman.

Eletric Superman? Really? I think you may be the first person I've ever heard admit to liking him...

Somebody has to

Lucy McGough wrote:

tony ingram wrote:Eletric Superman? Really? I think you may be the first person I've ever heard admit to liking him...

Somebody has to

No. They don't.

MajorHoy wrote:

Lucy McGough wrote:

tony ingram wrote:Eletric Superman? Really? I think you may be the first person I've ever heard admit to liking him...

Somebody has to

No. They don't.

I think on balance i preferred Electric Superman to teen angst Nu52 Superman...

At least Electric Superman didn't have a kid son to whom he kept imparting heart-warming life lessons.

Lucy McGough wrote:At least Electric Superman didn't have a kid son to whom he kept imparting heart-warming life lessons.

Aww, poor Jon. I find their relationship rather sweet (most of the time).

It is sweet, but I'm too jaded and cynical for it to melt my flinty heart.

Lucy McGough wrote:It is sweet, but I'm too jaded and cynical for it to melt my flinty heart.

Maybe if you listen to more Leonard Cohen covers?

Then I'll become even more jaded and cynical, surely?