Earth-2 is coming!

They certainly do. The Silver age fans tend to shout the loudest these days, but they rarely acknowledge that without the characters and concepts created in the thirties and forties, they'd have no Barry Allen, Hal Jordan or whoever. From the moment i first encountered them in the 70's, the JSA and to a lesser extent characters like the Freedom Fighters and their various legacies have been my primary interest as far as DC went. I have no interest in the revamped 'modern' characters, so I was really counting on Robinson and Scott to preserve at least this one vital piece of the past, but I suspect DC's powers-that-be wouldn't allow it. Everything has to be new, to draw in the largely non existent new fanbase which they believe will save the company. Their history, and their longtime fans, are expendable.

Well, it's here. And I'm disappointed.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2012/02/10/first-look-earth-two-variant-cover/

What the Hell is that!!? Variant versions of a younger Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman? What on Earth does that have to do with Earth Two or the JSA? Looks as though DC have finally burned the last of their bridges. Utterly incredible. And not in a good way.

The Worlds' Finest cover looks atrocious, too. By the looks of it, the 'new' Power Girl and Huntress were Supergirl and Robin on Earth 2. So, totally new premise, no connection to the past, and I won't be buying either book.

Just saw the Worlds' Finest. It's over, my friend. It's over. We've been screwed.

To top things off, JSA ended with some loose threads, and didn't get a proper send off. As much as Last Days pained me, it was closure. And it bookended the origin as consolation. This is ridiculous.

I told you a few posts back that I felt the premise was going to be totally new, a total revision and not an extension or continuation of the JSA's rich heritage.

I haven't been to the DC board yet, but my guess is someone is reveling in this.

I have. And they are.

I know this probably sounds totally unfair, but I cannot stand newbie fans with no emotional connection to the original characters basically ridiculing those who are upset by their loss. And DC have created this splintered fanbase. Going going, DC.

I was thinking the same thing when I was checking out the posts. Didn't read them all.

If this is the route DC wants to take, fine, let them. This time, however, I am walking away. Maybe some good will come from this in the end. Maybe these newbies will be inspired to check out the classic JSA, but I doubt it. "The art's too crude" and "It's too wordy." Gardner Fox must be rolling over in his grave.

I cannot adequately express how pissed off I am by this. I pretty much gave up on DC in September because of the reboot, because these were no longer the characters I'd followed for over thirty five years, but I still held out some hope that when the JSA returned on Earth 2, there would at least be one corner of the DC Universe unchanged by their new direction, which I could read and enjoy. I've sat back and waited for five months, honestly believing that because, I feel, that is what DC led us to believe. And now, it's become painfully apparent that it isn't to be. They've finally ditched 76 years of history altogether, for no reason I can see. It's just such a crying shame.

It gets better. Other fans are rejoicing the "return" of Dick Grayson, Donna Troy and Connor Kent. WTF???

Yes, I noticed. Quite aside from the fact that there's no indication those characters are we they're speculating they are, what on Earth (2) have Troy or Connor got to do with Earth 2?

tony ingram wrote:which has led to a small but dedicated section of their former fan base being given false hope

They've played on that for decades. Remember Zero Hour, when Hal talked about one earth not being enough? They've played on older fans as a way to get money for a long time.

tony ingram wrote:What the Hell is that!!? Variant versions of a younger Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman? What on Earth does that have to do with Earth Two or the JSA? Looks as though DC have finally burned the last of their bridges. Utterly incredible. And not in a good way.

Exactly. If I were interested in going back to buying DC, this would have been something I'd skip. I just don't get what they're doing anymore.

randy77tx wrote:My guess is we've seen the end of the JSA we love.

And fan fiction is not an option. Most fan fiction is horribly written. Poor characterization, no respect for continuity, ridiculous and predictable plots like gender reversal, etc.

Yes, I think DC has really cut off its past. Genuinely bizarre.

And, I actually do know a fanfiction writer whose work is at least of publishable quality (meaning it's better than some things I've seen professionally) and deals with DC, and isn't creepy. Look up the work of Darkmark. It's fantastic.

It seems to be a deliberate policy decision on their part, to pretend that nothing published before last year ever happened. If it didn't seem so ludicrous I'd say they were trying to shed their former fanbase altogether.

tony ingram wrote:If it didn't seem so ludicrous I'd say they were trying to shed their former fanbase altogether.

I think the expectation is that they'll just follow anything DC. Which makes no sense given how vocal those fans can be about changes. No clue what's going on.

Mbast1 wrote:

randy77tx wrote:My guess is we've seen the end of the JSA we love.

And fan fiction is not an option. Most fan fiction is horribly written. Poor characterization, no respect for continuity, ridiculous and predictable plots like gender reversal, etc.

Yes, I think DC has really cut off its past. Genuinely bizarre.

And, I actually do know a fanfiction writer whose work is at least of publishable quality (meaning it's better than some things I've seen professionally) and deals with DC, and isn't creepy. Look up the work of Darkmark. It's fantastic.

I'll check it out. I've never been a real fan of fanfiction but I've done it in the past in different genres. I was very strict with it. No goofy, camp. No outrageous or predictable plots. Characters had to be recognizable and not out of line. But after a discussion with a friend of mine, I might give it a second chance. If DC is finally really going to turn its back on my favorite characters, why can't I continue stories myself. It doesn't have to end. I know there is some awesome Masters of the Universe fiction and art. So ... why not?

tony ingram wrote:It seems to be a deliberate policy decision on their part, to pretend that nothing published before last year ever happened. If it didn't seem so ludicrous I'd say they were trying to shed their former fanbase altogether.

I'm tired of DC's buffet approach to its legacy. This happened, but that didn't. It was Superhero A and not Superhero B. Forget the last 70+ years. It's all brand new!

I'm also tired of DC dangling the carrot in front of the noses of older readers. I feel like the lead up to Earth-2 was a deliberate plan executed to entice older readers with false hopes of Earth-2 returning and new readers as a starting point. How many times has DC done this?

All too often. They also seem utterly directionless; I'm not convinced they aren't simply making up policy as they go along. Look at the Teen Titans continuity fiasco.

randy77tx wrote:I'll check it out. I've never been a real fan of fanfiction but I've done it in the past in different genres.

I think you'll enjoy it. And if you post any of yours, be sure to let us know where.

randy77tx wrote:I'm also tired of DC dangling the carrot in front of the noses of older readers. I feel like the lead up to Earth-2 was a deliberate plan executed to entice older readers with false hopes of Earth-2 returning and new readers as a starting point. How many times has DC done this?

Many. They seem to know they need new readers, since their numbers are down, but they can't really pick a direction and stay with it. They tease older fans with some things, and then don't deliver.
And is it not just bizarre that in 2005, Infinite Crisis happened, gave us a multiverse back, and that seems to be gone already for a newer one?

Wasn't there some sort of editorial decision to forbid the use of the multiverse after the JSA annual? I never understood that...

tony ingram wrote:Wasn't there some sort of editorial decision to forbid the use of the multiverse after the JSA annual? I never understood that...

There was? This just gets stupider. What would have been the point of bringing it back?

I'm sure there was. It was strongly rumoured they wanted the JSA Annual to lead into a proper multi-part story with the JSA and Justice Society Infinity, who were supposed to have a major impact on Power Girl, but they were told to forget it as DC didn't want Earth 2 used. I don't think we ever found out why.

tony ingram wrote:I don't think we ever found out why.

Ridiculous. It's like they don't have any clue what to do, so they just wipe out everything before, no matter how recently they'd made sweeping changes. Bizarre.

They seem to have been pretty directionless since around the time Infinite Crisis concluded. From One Year Later on, nothing has really stuck. They removed Hawkman from his own book when it was selling well, and replaced him with Hawkgirl, which got cancelled. They dismantled the Titans and began a series of revamps of that team that went nowhere. The Earth 2 thing in JSA, Bart Allen as Flash...none of it made any sense.

tony ingram wrote:none of it made any sense.

That's the feeling I got, too. That they were just reacting, and were so desperate for sales that they wouldn't stick to anything. It was/is odd.

Was there some sort of behind the scenes shakeup going on at the time, I wonder? Pressure from Warners? Maybe there still is...

Everything post-Infinite Crisis is a mess. There were the rumors of DC not being so dark anymore. The Legacies mini-series seemed to rewrite some continuity. The Who's Who project got shelved. I heard about the JSA/JSI, too. All a mess.

And the more I hear about Earth-2 and Worlds' Finest, the less I'm interested.

Will I write my own fan fiction? Right now, I'm just trying to finish an Earth-Two narrative. You know, trying to make the JSA's history one consecutive, uninterrupted story. It's a daunting task with having to make some substitutions to make it make it all work on one world. But it's a bit rewarding. (And for fun, I might include the Invaders.)

After that, yeah, fan fiction here I come. I have some ideas.

I've been toying with the idea of a comics anthology featuring some old characters now in the public domain, and maybe some based on the JSA and a few others who aren't...

You're trying to steal my JSA version of JLA #144, aren't you!

randy77tx wrote:You're trying to steal my JSA version of JLA #144, aren't you!

Hah! No, I assure you your copyright is safe. But I've a few characters in mind who haven't been used in recent years The Ghost Woman, Fearless Flint, the Spider Widow and the Gay Desperado for starters. The Gay Desperado may need a name change, admittedly...or I could just go the Rawhide Kid route with him...

Or you can create that gay superhero group mentioned at the DC board. GLA, maybe?

Go for it! You can do an All-Star Squadron spinoff. Send the public domain characters to the West Coast. West Coast All-Stars!

I love the PD characters. So many fun copycats! The Wraith was basically an inverted Spectre! Some were just so corny with their lack of imagination especially with the costumes -- Black Lion and Cub, for example. On the other hand, Banshee was an interesting looking character and I hope to get my hands on more stories. I love them in a different way from my love of the JSA. The JSA is the original, and still best group of heroes. But my love of cheesy B-movies crosses over with forgotten heroes!

My dream was a limited series depicting Madam Fatal and the Spider Widow as star crossed lovers; a young man and a young woman, both of whom fought crime dressed as old ladies, strangely attracted to each other yet unaware of each others' secrets....

Unfortunately, I think DC have now laid claim to Madam Fatal. And pretty much ruined him.

tony ingram wrote:I've been toying with the idea of a comics anthology featuring some old characters now in the public domain, and maybe some based on the JSA and a few others who aren't...

I've been looking up public domain books, your idea sounds fun! There's a ton out there right now.

Have you come across http://pdsh.wikia.com/wiki/Public_Domain_Super_Heroes
and http://pdfc.wikia.com/wiki/Public_Domain_Funnies_Wiki yet?

I've been to those sites. Cool.

Okay, maybe this JSA history isn't the greatest idea I've ever had. Post Infinite Crisis is a mess. It's like the DCU was thrown into a blender! I've made substitutions for heroes/villains; explained Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman; wrote off most of the crossover events as JLA/JSA teamups, but it's still a mess! It's basically turning into the DCU if Earth-Two instead of Earth-One had been the dominant earth. Maybe I should stick with the original Earth-Two.

Can we have a summary?

Basically, I converted a couple online chronologies and used the History of the DC Universe as a guide. I wanted the JSA's history to read as a narrative. I was inspired by a Masters of the Universe history I read that incorporated all the different stories, comics and cartoons. So, this would still be a history of the JSA, a chronology but in a story form. I also wanted to include a few things that got lost in Crisis like the SuperSons. I know I've complained about those wanting Wally on Earth-2, but this was a little different. Superman and Lois had children because their descendants have been depicted in Earth-Two stories set in the future.

About 90%, I'd say, is just pure JSA history. The rest is necessary substitutions and changes with very few additions.

When I'm finished, I'll do a PDF and post it.

Nice one, looking forward to it! After all, if we can't have the real JSA back in any official form we're probably better off creating our own. Do you think DC would notice if someone started telling stories about the Fairness Society of America, starring Samson, Glory Girl, the Streak, Eagleman & Kestrel, Mister Fate and Stellarman? They're all brand new and original characters, obviously; Eagleman, for instance, is a Librarian named Carpenter Manse who has a thing for ancient weapons....

How does DC feel about fanfiction? My best friend was fan of a soap opera and posted his fake three seasons complete with fake opening credits and he got a letter to take it down. But I don't think DC has intervened or reprimanded anyone over fanfiction. That Five Earths Project has been going on for years.

This history is basically for myself, but I'll share it here. But I would like to do new stories. And I really want to do an ending. As much as Last Days of the JSA got to me, it was closure. This new DCU just came out of nowhere. Personally, I think all the last issues should have been double-sized and allow the creators and fans some sort of closure.

But if you have plans why not do a British version? Just for fun, who would you put in a JSU? There's a site about international heroes ...

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/

And how many European heroes did DC have? Knight & Squire, Musketeer, Wingman, Legionary, Little Mermaid, Jack O'Lantern, Olympian, Wild Huntsman, Ice, Crimson Fox and a bunch of Green Arrows. And who were those kids in Young All-Stars?

There were actually quite a few European heroes, they were just very rarely used. Lionheart and Godiva were the British representatives (though of course, Godiva is now in JLI, ironically enough) and there were a few more Global Guardians like Fleur de Lis. And as you say, there were the Allies from Young All-Stars, Fireball, Fantasmo, Kuei and Squire, but to be honest I think most of them were pretty forgettable. I don't think DC were ever really that interested in non American characters. Marvel have generally been rather better in that regard, probably because of Marvel UK, though they also had a number of quite interesting non British characters like the Arabian Knight, Sabra and of course the Black Panther.

I tried to read some fanfiction today. Not going to mention which one because it's pretty bad. Worse than I thought, actually. Gaping holes in continuity that even the novice fan should know. Very, very talky. It read more like a soap opera than a super-hero story.

You know, the comics used to always have a text page, so the idea of a story without pictures isn't knew, but this was bad. Not to mention a poor grasp on the English language. And too many cliches. Two cliches in a sentence is two too many.

In fact (tedious bit of trivia coming up) comics in Britain partly evolved from what used to be called 'story papers', which were largely illustrated text stories.

You know something that irks me? I was reading posts "elsewhere" and there are all these stupid comments like "I want a 1945 JSA book with Flash (Jay Garrick), Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Hawkman (Carter Hall), Sandman (Wesley Dodds) Spectre (Jim Corrigan) Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Hourman (Rex Tyler) and Atom (Al Pratt)." Do they not know the JSA history? Why stop there? Let's put Power Girl in the JSA in the 40's. And when continuity mistakes like this were corrected by writers like Roy Thomas or Len Wein, the posters freak out. It's almost as annoying as the put Wally West on Earth-Two thing. (Although I will concede and say Donna Troy as a greater possibility as an Earth-Two character than Wally.)

The thing I loved about Roy Thomas's work was the attention to detail, but many of the current generation don't seem to care about that. They want nods to the past, but don't actually care about continuity because they've never read the original stories and never will. It's a shame. Even the writers aren't immune. I loved James Robinson's Starman, but who the **** is "Jay Garrett"? As for dumping miscellaneous displaced characters on Earth 2, that just strikes me as fans of those characters saying "hey, a parallel universe-let's grab it and make it the old New Earth", without giving any thought to the original Earth Two characters. The only Teen Titans who should be on Earth 2 IMO are Robin and Speedy, the two who originally existed there. The only pre-Earth One Wonder Girl was Wonder Woman as a girl.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2012/02/27/earth-2-character-designs-batman/

i'm not particularly into the idea that the earth 2 batman is a darker individual than the dcnu batman -- especially if he's *possibly* willing to kill.

freedumbdclxvi wrote:especially if he's *possibly* willing to kill.

I know this marks me as a freak, but I have no interest at all in "heroes" who kill. I just don't get why it's something so many people want, and are so angry about not getting.

Mbast1 wrote:I know this marks me as a freak, but I have no interest at all in "heroes" who kill. I just don't get why it's something so many people want, and are so angry about not getting.

you're not alone. while i'm fine with reading some books that feature heroes who may or may not kill (though, offhand, i can't think of any monthlies i'm picking up where that is the case), i'm certainly not interested in a batman that does.

It's totally out of keeping with the character of Batman as developed since about 1940. OK, people say it's true to the original Batman concept and talk about him using a gun at first, but how long did that last?

I always thought it was the other way around: heroes preserved life.

Well, comments on Robin/Huntress?

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2012/02/28/earth-2-character-designs-robin/