Earth-2 is coming!

Any comments about the upcoming comic?

Only that it can't arrive too soon! Great to see you, Randy-very, very glad you made it over here (and before you ask, yep, on the DC boards I'm Tingramretro).

Actually, I'm really intrigued by the fact that the book is called 'Earth 2' not 'Justice Society of America'. Significant? A sign that it will have a wider scope than just the JSA, perhaps?

My guess is it's so readers won't get it confused with Justice League.

Seriously, I think it's so that it can incorporate a regular title and some "times past" stories and maybe more than just JSA, such as Infinity, Inc. and maybe All-Star Squadron. Or, since the companion title is Worlds' Finest, maybe it's to tie in with that name.

And my email address is on my profile. You got me into some trouble!

I'm primarily a JSA fan, but I'd love to see some of the other Golden Age heroes get occasional turns in the spotlight, either in the main slot or a back-up. The 7 Soldiers, infinity Inc, the All-Star Squadron, and maybe even individual heroes like the real Hawkman or some of the characters DC have done little or nothing with like Wildfire (Carol Vance) or Manhunter (Dan Richards).

Me, too. And I want this to be the JSA, but I want some appearances by the others. I really, REALLY want it to pick up post COIE.

I want the real heroes back, the real Hawkman, Atom, Dr. Mid-Nite, Sandman, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.

randy77tx wrote:Me, too. And I want this to be the JSA, but I want some appearances by the others. I really, REALLY want it to pick up post COIE.

I want the real heroes back, the real Hawkman, Atom, Dr. Mid-Nite, Sandman, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.

Dr. Mid-nite's off panel death always iritated me; one of DC's oldest established characters didn't even rate a farewell scene! I'd be happy for Robinson to follow up his Starman series with Ted Knight still dead (as long as we see him in flashback stories) since he got a good exit, but McNider deserved better than to be summarily killed off in the way he was, so I'd bring him back. Likewise the Atom. I'd probably leave Batman dead in the present day, though.

I'd leave Batman dead, too. I just don't want the original trinity ignored. I have a passion for the original Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman thanks to Michael Fleisher.

Robinson's Past Times formula would be the way to prevent that from happening. Want to tell a Huntress story that refers back to an untold Batman story? Great; the next issue, or a backup, will be the Batman case in question, set back in 1940, 1950, or even 1970, complete with the Kathy Kane Batwoman (there was a version on Earth Two) and good ol' Alfred Beagle!

Absolutely!

I wouldn't mind the Times Past as a backup feature.

Some other GA characters I'd like to see made use (all of whom I believe DC technically own even if they haven't used them much, or at all): the Spider-Widow (I've been toying for ages with an idea for a Madam Fatal/Spider-Widow team-up), the Clock, Firebrand (Rod Reilly), Captain Triumph, the Mouthpiece, Quicksilver (as Quicksilver, not Max Mercury) and Bozo the Iron Man. And solo stories for Mr Terrific (Sloane) and the original Black Canary.

Maybe Secret Origins would be a better backup.

I'd love to see more Mr. Terrific. I know Roy Thomas wasn't too fond of him (or Red Tornado), but it was his uniqueness that fascinated me about him. I loved Mr. T in National Comics #1 and kept thinking, why hasn't anyone written him like this before?

As for Ma, I don't think Geoff ever gave an explanation as to how probably the oldest member of the JSA was still alive. I mean, Ma was already a parent in her first appearance and I always got the impression she was middle aged then, so how could she still be alive? I liked her as the mother hen of the group, but no one seems to care. Just like Power Girl and Huntress should be hitting 50s by now.

Did you ever compose your own timeline?

randy77tx wrote:Maybe Secret Origins would be a better backup.

I'd love to see more Mr. Terrific. I know Roy Thomas wasn't too fond of him (or Red Tornado), but it was his uniqueness that fascinated me about him. I loved Mr. T in National Comics #1 and kept thinking, why hasn't anyone written him like this before?

As for Ma, I don't think Geoff ever gave an explanation as to how probably the oldest member of the JSA was still alive. I mean, Ma was already a parent in her first appearance and I always got the impression she was middle aged then, so how could she still be alive? I liked her as the mother hen of the group, but no one seems to care. Just like Power Girl and Huntress should be hitting 50s by now.

Did you ever compose your own timeline?

Doesn't everybody do thatfrom time to time?

Actually, Ma's longevity was sort of addressed in JSA, with a line about her having been 'a young mother' in the forties. That was about ten years ago though, so I guess by 'young' we now have to assume they meant 'illegal' and possibly 'record breaking'...

I must have skipped the "young mother" line but she must have been a REALLY young mother since Huey was a contemporary of Scribbly and he'd been around since 1936. Then again, he didn't age, so maybe Ma taking some of whatever was keeping Scribbly youthful.

I have some wild ideas about a timeline I dare not post at DC. Some might not like my guesses. LOL

Postr it here! I'll check it out later; off to watch the BBC's new Sherlock series in a minute...

randy77tx wrote:As for Ma, I don't think Geoff ever gave an explanation as to how probably the oldest member of the JSA was still alive.

She was a refugee from Paradise Island [/madeuponthespot]

I have actually heard less credible explanations for characters' longevity...

What's incredible about my explanation? It would be a rubbish explanation if she were a man, but she isn't. I reckon it makes perfect sense.

Well, there is the fact that she was called @ma' because she had kids, and the Amazons were all, IIRC, supposed to remain >ahem< pure or risk losing their immortality, IIRC...

Perhaps Hera intervened on her behalf so that she could keep her immortality. In Greek myths you can get away with anything if you've got a deity as your patron.

Maybe she is, in fact, Hera's daughter. Why not?

I feel a 12 issue Ma Hunkel of Themiscrya maxi-series coming on...

Just don't call her Red Tempest.

Are you sick of that? Ever since it was announced the JSA would be back on Earth-2 (whatever that might be) it's been nonstop with corny and ridiculous revisions and trying to transform it into a haven for cancelled characters.

randy77tx wrote:Just don't call her Red Tempest.

Are you sick of that? Ever since it was announced the JSA would be back on Earth-2 (whatever that might be) it's been nonstop with corny and ridiculous revisions and trying to transform it into a haven for cancelled characters.

I know. People with no attachment to the JSA basically saying 'hey, another Earth, that means we can get the 80's Teen Titans back!" It's deeply irritating.

The posts that are made at DC are by readers who have only read the last two incarnations, not realizing that the team has a long and glorious career. It's almost Star Trek-ian. Kirk v. Picard. Old Kirk v. New Kirk. Etc. They don't realize that each version is part of the same heritage. And if one strays too far from that heritage, it's not the JSA anymore.

I get rather depressed when I realize how many of the current generation of comics readers have no appreciation of the history of the medium at all, no interest in anything published before they themselves started reading. It's very sad. They'll treat Geoff Johns or Brian Bendis like demi-gods, but mention Gardner Fox or Jim Steranko and their virtual eyes glaze over.

Yes, and I like James Robinson, but I worry about the upcoming title. Not because of his run on JLA like some fans, it's more for the genre, I guess. I hope Earth-2 does not have to resort to the tactics the DCnU books have. That is, the extreme sex, violence, gore, etc. If I want that, I'll rent a slasher film. I want a good story accompanied with good art. Now I'm not saying I'm a prude. I'm just saying I don't want a JSA title that has to resort to that to sell the title.

I hope we can get back to solid stories and characterization. But if we get heads flying everywhere, blood splattered pages, and Wildcat screwing someone on the top of the roof ... I might just continue my re-reading of the originals.

Robinson never resorted to that kind of stuff in his Starman series or his previous JSA work, and I think Earth 2 will be more likely to be in that vein than Cry for Justice or the recent DCnU stuff. I have faith in Robinson's ability to do the characters justice, I think.

I think so too. Starman remains an impressive run. The Golden Age was a little more mature, but nothing like what's going on in some of the books today. It also doesn't work with the JSA.

That was always one of my beefs with some new readers. They wanted the JSA to just be Wildcat, Flash and Green Lantern, and only saw them as kindly, grandparently Santa Claus heroes. When Roy Thomas said he was going to do All-Star Squadron in the 40s where all the heroes were young and vibrant and active, it was a bold move. I loved it. The JSA in their prime!

I just wish we'd get a little more info!

Too early, I think. We're at least four months off the first issue as yet, I suspect. But maybe there'll be some clues in upcoming issues of The Shade...

Hope you don't mind me posting this.

Newsarama's Wish List (Sorry, I'm new and can't post the actual link.)

And my response:

The Iconic Round Table
I agree with this. It goes back beyond the JSA but to the Knights of King Arthur. This is what greatness is all about.

An Undie on the Outside
I want the iconic costumes, and not Jim Lee’s metro retro mod uniform look.
Team-Up Tease
That’d be cool … but I rather the JSA try to discover what happened to the real JLA and have nothing to do with DCnU.

Married Heroes
Life, death, birth, marriage were all parts of the Earth-Two formula that appealed to so many of us. Sure, Superman could leap over a tall building in a single bound, but he always came home to Lois. I love the comment Superman made (in COIE #11) about how many times he and Lois had dinners with Jay and Joan. It made them seem more real. Despite all their powers, they were people behind the masks.

Ray Palmer
I’d rather Earth-2 not become the clutter earth. Perhaps instead, Al can regain the shrinking abilities he had in DCCP #30. It'd be interesting to see Al partnering with Nuklon/Atom-Smasher

Adult Legacy Characters
I’m for this, but I don’t know about Robin becoming Batman.

M.I.A. Titans
Again, I don’t want Earth-2 becoming a clutter earth for every MIA character and cancelled title. Wally’s relationship with Jay is very tempting, but characters who rarely had any relationship with the JSA? No way.

Unique Timeline
The JSA already has a unique timeline that is tied to real-life events. Tampering with it ruins what makes the JSA so unique to start with. Has anyone ever read anything prior to the last two incarnations of the JSA?

Stargirl
I’m sorry, I never got Stargirl’s appeal. She always seemed like some immature fanboy’s wetdream. I wouldn’t deny her presence in the JSA’s new title but to call her the “heart of the JSA” is ridiculous.

The Big Three
There are more JSA fans to appease than the fan base of the last two incarnations. No, don’t revamp them, modernize them just to keep them there. Keep them there, but there is no need to alter them. And while I love Ted, Alan, and Jay, I’d like to see Hawkman and Dr. Fate get a little attention.

I tend to agree with you on most of these points, and yet again I see that the pointless and irritating idea of denying Earth 2 its own identity in order to give a home to characters displaced from clutter Earth rears its ugly head. Why can't Earth 2 be left alone as the last outpost of the pre-COIE DCU which so many of us loved? Personally, I don't really care if Wally West never shows up again at this point, but if he does it should be in Barry's book, not Jay's.

randy77tx wrote:Stargirl
I’m sorry, I never got Stargirl’s appeal. She always seemed like some immature fanboy’s wetdream. I wouldn’t deny her presence in the JSA’s new title

I would. I can't stand chirpy, blonde cheerleader-type girls who are just so adorably cute and kooky that everybody lurves them.

Lucy McGough wrote:

randy77tx wrote:Stargirl
I’m sorry, I never got Stargirl’s appeal. She always seemed like some immature fanboy’s wetdream. I wouldn’t deny her presence in the JSA’s new title

I would. I can't stand chirpy, blonde cheerleader-type girls who are just so adorably cute and kooky that everybody lurves them.

Now that's just unfair! I'm sure there's far more to Courtney Whitmore than that...

And as soon as I figure out what it is, I'll tell you.

She can stay on the team. But come on, no more issues dealing with whether or not she still has to wear her braces, or birthday issues, or whether she'll Mrs. Courtney Atom-Smasher, or oops! I missed my period.

randy77tx wrote:She can stay on the team. But come on, no more issues dealing with whether or not she still has to wear her braces, or birthday issues, or whether she'll Mrs. Courtney Atom-Smasher, or oops! I missed my period.

I quite agree. The JSA is not the Teen Titans, we don't need teen 'issues'.

No comic needs teen 'issues'.

Lucy McGough wrote:No comic needs teen 'issues'.

Hey, I don't even need teens. under any circumstances...

Yeah, the Teen Titans are kind of annoying. I liked Young Justice though.

Oddly, Young Justice was a book I really liked despite my normal antipathy to 'kid' characters (another is Marvel's current Avengers Academy series). It was a well written, often witty and sometimes even touching book about friendship. Then they ditched half the characters and dumped the rest in the Titans and it all turned to crap...

No thanks to something drawn with bug-eyes and big feet no matter how well written. Well, my opinion.

randy77tx wrote:No thanks to something drawn with bug-eyes and big feet no matter how well written. Well, my opinion.

Hmm. Well, 'big feet' would also apply to much of the work of the legendary British comic artist Mike McMahon, so I can't agree there. Bug eyes, on the other hand...

What was your view of Robinson's podcast?

randy77tx wrote:What was your view of Robinson's podcast?

As ever, he comes across as an amiable bloke with a genuine enthusiasm for his subject. but he didn't let a lot of details slip, did he? Except that it seems the Shade has been divorced from Starman continuity. The cracks are beginning to show, I fear...

What do you think is the "great cost"? I'm thinking the original Crisis on Infinite Earths. You?

randy77tx wrote:What do you think is the "great cost"? I'm thinking the original Crisis on Infinite Earths. You?

I'm actually wondering if it's not simply World War II...

I don't think I'm looking forward to things as much as I was.

If things picked up from the original Crisis, I'd be happy since that was the real JSA and it'd be picking up where things left off.

If things were picked up from the JSA Annual, I'd still be happy because it was almost the real JSA and it'd be almost picking up where things left off.

I'd even be happy if all of post-Crisis JSA history were shoe-horned into Earth-Two somehow.

But, if the new title is just a new version then I'm not too happy. It's a new version, and not in any real sense a continuation -- like the rest of the new DCU. In other words, yes, the JSA is back, but it's more the feel of an Elseworlds title.

I'll be around for things, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I think an era has finally ended. I'm going to continue my All-Star Squadron/Invaders re-read. Maybe do some "fanfiction" of my own or continue my revised Who's Who pages and revive my blog.

Thing is, we really have no idea one way or another just yet, it's all just speculation. I'm still clinging to the thought that so far, Robinson has seemed to have a pretty solid grasp of Golden Age characters even if he does tend to get Jay Garrick's name wrong...

Latest comments from Paul levitz seem to suggest this is a totally new Earth 2 and that Huntress and Power Girl are new characters. If so, I'm rather disappointed by this and I can't see myself sticking with it very long.

My guess is this new Earth-2 is a new Earth-2. An Elseworlds Earth-2 basically.

I'll buy it but it depends how long I support it. I am really only interested in the basic Earth-Two JSA and it's continuation.

Disappointed.

Likewise. I really don't understand DC's reasons for doing this, or the apparently deliberate misdirection they've alowed which has led to a small but dedicated section of their former fan base being given false hope that this book would somehow be a last outpost of the 'old' DC. What kind of reaction did they expect to get? And why are they so determined to distance themselves from their own history?

I was really afraid of this. I've enjoyed seeing alternative JSA's as in The Golden Age, The Liberty Files, etc. And, for the most part, I've enjoyed the different runs since Crisis (the first series perhaps the most). But this is totally different. It's not the old Earth-Two. It's not an extension of it. It's new. Like I said, I'll buy it out of interest, but I don't know what will happen after that.

My guess is we've seen the end of the JSA we love.

And fan fiction is not an option. Most fan fiction is horribly written. Poor characterization, no respect for continuity, ridiculous and predictable plots like gender reversal, etc.

For me, I'm going to continue with my All-Star Squadron/Invaders reading then move on to Freedom Fighters and Shazam. I'm really not interested anymore in trying to shoehorn in post-Crisis events into a post-Crisis Earth-Two. Just the end of an era. And that's a shame. These were the first real super-heroes. To me, along with Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, Uncle Sam, Captain America, and a few others from that era, they rank up there with the classic pulp heroes, and even the classic heroes of fiction.