Re: Earth-2 is coming!

by **tony ingram** Thu May 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:It was, and that's where I first encountered it, but I could never get used to it. The double beak just looked weird and awkward to me.

I just thought it was visually interesting, and served to differentiate the two Hawks.

But surely, there was no other Hawk to differentiate from in 1941?

by Mbast1 Thu May 24, 2012 9:37 pm

tony ingram wrote:But surely, there was no other Hawk to differentiate from in 1941?

I wasn't alive then. I was talking about in the 1970's and 80's.

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 7:23 am

Mbast1 wrote:
tony ingram wrote:But surely, there was no other Hawk to differentiate from in 1941?

I wasn't alive then. I was talking about in the 1970's and 80's.

Ah, right, gotcha.

by Sam_Vimes Fri May 25, 2012 1:36 pm

I used to think the double beak was a mistake, myself. Like, some artist didn't do their research or something and just plain drew it wrong. That sounds silly, I know, but fill-in artists on Green Lantern when I was a kid tended to screw Kyle's costume up in bizarre ways so I figured it could've happened in the old days too.

Now, about Earth 2: I read it. I'm not proud of it, but I did (my wife saw Batman and assumed I wanted it, is the short story). Joan Garrick is just awful in it (apparently Jay thought they had something while Joan was merely hitting and quitting it; very in-character of her, right?), of the Big Three only Batman had a death that was at all meaningful, and Al Pratt featured a bizarre amount.

Those are the only real complaints, other than the obvious "it's not really them!" complaint I have about almost everything DC puts out these days (Batman and the Green Lanterns being the obvious exceptions, of course, excpept when they're shown in Justice League). But that complaint's really all I need. I don't care about the CONCEPTS, I care about the PEOPLE, and the people in Earth 2 aren't any people I've ever seen before.

In short: Tony, you definitely wouldn't like this.

by randy77tx Fri May 25, 2012 2:32 pm

A bunch of comments to posts and no time to properly quote:

Well, I was duplicating the letterhead from the 70’s All-Star Comics. I might try to find the more traditional headgear.

I want to say the silver age picked up where the golden age left off, but what about Sandman? And for that matter, Hawkman’s first silver age appearance features him in hawk gear not a mask.

Johnny gets no respect, lol. It takes a lot of time to find those headshots and clean them up if not using a clean copy.

My favorite Hawkman gear is still the one used in All-Star Squadron. There’s an interesting piece in All-Star Companion about the evolution of Hawkman’s mask and how the stories were probably out of order.

And finally …

Rumors are Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. If they were going to make a JSAer gay I’d rather it had been Dr. Mid-Nite. Classic soap opera there. Handsome doctor, willing nurse who is rejected, Myra Mason cries herself to sleep wondering “Why doesn’t Dr. McNider love me?” Hell, the way Joan treated Jay in issue 1 I could even seem him being gay but Alan? That’d be like making Tony Stark gay!

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 2:55 pm

randy77tx wrote:A bunch of comments to posts and no time to properly quote:

Well, I was duplicating the letterhead from the 70’s All-Star Comics. I might try to find the more traditional headgear.

I want to say the silver age picked up where the golden age left off, but what about Sandman? And for that matter, Hawkman’s first silver age appearance features him in hawk gear not a mask.

Wasn't that a flashback, though? In Flash #129? I thought his first actual Silver Age appearance was in JLA #21, and he has the cloth mask there...

Rumors are Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. If they were going to make a JSAer gay I’d rather it had been Dr. Mid-Nite. Classic soap opera there. Handsome doctor, willing nurse who is rejected, Myra Mason cries herself to sleep wondering “Why doesn’t Dr. McNider love me?” Hell, the way Joan treated Jay in issue 1 I could even seem him being gay but Alan? That’d be like making Tony Stark gay!

I've heard the rumours, too. I'd be annoyed, if I thought this alan Scott was in any way the real Alan Scott. as it is, I can't bring myself to care.

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 3:06 pm

tony ingram wrote:
randy77tx wrote:A bunch of comments to posts and no time to properly quote:

Well, I was duplicating the letterhead from the 70’s All-Star Comics. I might try to find the more traditional headgear.

I want to say the silver age picked up where the golden age left off, but what about Sandman? And for that matter, Hawkman’s first silver age appearance features him in hawk gear not a mask.
Wasn't that a flashback, though? In Flash #129? I thought his first actual Silver Age appearance was in JLA #21, and he has the cloth mask there. Or was he in Flash #137, too? I can't remember...

Rumors are Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. If they were going to make a JSAer gay I’d rather it had been Dr. Mid-Nite. Classic soap opera there. Handsome doctor, willing nurse who is rejected, Myra Mason cries herself to sleep wondering “Why doesn’t Dr. McNider love me?” Hell, the way Joan treated Jay in issue 1 I could even seem him being gay but Alan? That’d be like making Tony Stark gay!

I've heard the rumours, too. I'd be annoyed, if I thought this alan Scott was in any way the real Alan Scott. as it is, I can't bring myself to care.

by randy77tx Fri May 25, 2012 3:09 pm

Yes, in the flashback he's wearing the mask, but when Vandal Savage kidnaps the JSA in Flash #137, he's wearing a helmet. Then in JLA #21, he's back to the mask.

As for Sandman, I think Gardner Fox just took Sandman back to way the character was portrayed while he was writing for his solo strip.

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 3:26 pm

I can't say I blame him...

by randy77tx Fri May 25, 2012 3:37 pm

Too many Buckys running around for my taste. If Johns had been around in the golden age, he'd have some story where all the sidekicks are killed and turned into zombies.

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 3:41 pm

randy77tx wrote:Too many Buckys running around for my taste. If Johns had been around in the golden age, he'd have some story where all the sidekicks are killed and turned into zombies.

There are only two Bucky's appearing at the moment. I'm just sorry they killed off Jack Monroe.

by randy77tx Fri May 25, 2012 3:47 pm

There were way too many sidekicks in the golden age. Robin and Bucky were okay but when Sandman gained Sandy and then all the others ...

I was actually waiting for these!

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 Golden-Age-Teen-Titans

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 Golden-Age-Teen-Titans

by **tony ingram** Fri May 25, 2012 4:26 pm

Hang on-wouldn't Zoot Alores have been working for the Allies? Or was he a French collaborator?

by Mbast1 Fri May 25, 2012 5:06 pm

Sam_Vimes wrote:so I figured it could've happened in the old days too.

Oh, it did. Think about the Luthor/Ultrahumanite mistake.

by randy77tx Thu May 31, 2012 3:32 pm

Is it me or has discussion over Earth-2 basically fizzled out? None of the boards are spewing with their overabundance of gushing comments right now, and didn't #2 come out yesterday?

I really believe we will see a return to normalcy later and this 52 business will be an Ultimates line. I also think if DC were smart, they'd let one of the other publishers (Dynamite, perhaps) publish a Golden Age series. There is a demand for these characters just maybe not strong enough for DC to publish (or so they think).

by **tony ingram** Thu May 31, 2012 3:36 pm

I would love to see Dynamite publish a Golden Age DC book. A JSA series which acknowledged the original Wonder Woman's existence would be nice, for a start.

I think you're right, the first issues of these books got a lot of attention but the majority of even the most positive comments seemed to be along the lines of "If I think of this as an Elseworlds story, I can enjoy it". I don't think that's quite the reaction DC were hoping for.

by Sam_Vimes Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:31 am

I also think Randy is right. This New 52 nonsense will blow over sooner or later. It's really just a matter of "when", not "if". There'll be big crisis or something (there's already supposed to be, if that Pandora person is to be believed) and things will be returned mostly to normal, albeit with a few more Wildstorm characters running around than there ought to be.

Given enough time, things almost ALWAYS return to the way old-school fans like them. I mean, look at Superman; Geoff Johns went completely out of his way to undo anything he could that John Byrne himself had undone. Just before the reboot Silver Age Superman was basically back. And then there's Grant Morrison, who decided that every Batman story "counts" whether the post-Miller revisionists liked it or not. Something about classic stories being invalidated by current ones just doesn't SIT right with fans, and even though they clash with said fans now and then the creators wouldn't be where they were if they weren't fans themselves.

In short, all will be well. But until then there's always Marvel and Dynamite!

by **tony ingram** Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:57 am

Trouble is, in the case of the Silver Age Superman, it took twenty years. I hope this latest fiasco doesn't last as long.

by randy77tx Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:31 am

I'm beginning to believe 52 is just another DC gimmick -- remember death of Superman? This is just leading up to -- in my opinion -- a huge crossover later where new meets old. After all, we are approaching the 50th anniversary of one of THE most classic moments in comic book history ...

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 JLA_v.1_21

by Sam_Vimes Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:51 pm

I don't know. . .something tells me Dan DiDio is not even AWARE of that classic moment. We can dream, though, we can dream.

by **tony ingram** Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:33 pm

I don't think Didio sees any value in anything published before he started reading comics himself.

by randy77tx Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:27 pm

And doesn't that kill you? DC has such a rich history, too.

by randy77tx Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:46 pm

I was thinking the second issues were out this week, but it's next. Still, I figured more talk than discussion of new v. old.

by **tony ingram** Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:27 pm

The discussion at the moment in a lot of places seems to be centred around the change to Alan Scott. And it seems to be generating a lot of negative comment.

by Lucy Ingram Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:18 pm

Now there's a surprise!

by **tony ingram** Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:58 pm

It also seems to be generating a lot of peurile jokes about Alan's weakness to wood. which is not a surprise.

by randy77tx Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:56 pm

I can just see the unholy trinity of DiDio/Johns/Lee giggling over that like Beavis & Butthead.

I said I don't mind a character whose background hasn't really been explored that much being retconned as a homosexual. Dr. Mid-Nite has long been suspected of being gay and if he was, it wouldn't bother me. I even accepted Obsidian becoming gay because I could see a mixed up young man having an identity crisis. He wasn't like Johnny Thunder with his tongue wagging at Black Canary. I could even have gone with Jay Garrick after the way they presented him in #1 with an angry Joan Williams. Yeah, Jay and Joan always seemed to have a healthy marriage but they never had kids, so maybe the fastest man alive had a wandering eye. But to take Alan Scott -- who always came across to me as DC's Tony Stark -- who was married twice, father of two children, etc. It doesn't add up. Then again, since the reign of Didio, what has made sense?

by Mbast1 Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:40 am

randy77tx wrote:It doesn't add up.

I think that's just it. He's not the same character. None of them are. DC is trying to make an entirely new set of characters based on the old ones. They're not meant to be the same.
After COIE I was bothered by how different so many of the characters were, how they'd "changed". I finally just decided to take DC at its original word, that these were entirely different characters, NOT the ones I'd known. My DC, the original multiverse, was gone, and I'd either like the new versions or I wouldn't. It just seems to make more sense that way.

by **tony ingram** Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:25 am

Mbast1 wrote:
randy77tx wrote:It doesn't add up.

I think that's just it. He's not the same character. None of them are. DC is trying to make an entirely new set of characters based on the old ones. They're not meant to be the same.
After COIE I was bothered by how different so many of the characters were, how they'd "changed". I finally just decided to take DC at its original word, that these were entirely different characters, NOT the ones I'd known. My DC, the original multiverse, was gone, and I'd either like the new versions or I wouldn't. It just seems to make more sense that way.

To me, though, that wasn't the case; the multiverse was gone, but the characters survived, or most of them. They were there at the dawn of time in Crisis #10, unchanged. many of them retained memories of the pre-Crisis world long after it was gone before their new history asserted itself. Most of the old stories were still in continuity. This new scenario is entirely different. COIE streamlined the DCU. Flashpoint destroyed it.

by randy77tx Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:21 pm

I'm so frustrated with DC I don't even know which thread to post in, but since this sprang from the new Alan Scott, I'll post here.

Why does DC never think things through? Why make Alan Scott gay? If DC is going through all the trouble of making JLA more diversity then why bring in Cyborg? Just use John Stewart as Green Lantern. No need to bring in Cyborg, and JLA's seven could stay intact. And better yet, why not make Barry Allen gay? Or Hal Jordan? If the JLA is DC's flagship and they want to promote diversity, then why not? Because DC doesn't 1) think things through and 2) they don't have the balls to screw with a true icon.

And from the panels I've seen, the lover in Alan's life looks a bit stereotypical. Yes, DC that helps your cause.

"It was just meant to be - Alan Scott being a gay member of the team, the Justice Society, that I'll be forming in the pages of 'Earth 2,'" Robinson said. "He's just meant to be part of this big tapestry of characters."

Robinson is what I always said he was: a YES man. DiDio says it, he does it.

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 120601_green_lantern_2

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 120601_green_lantern_2

by randy77tx Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:28 pm

Anyone else reminded of the old GL cartoons?

Earth-2 is coming! - Page 8 Greenl31

by **tony ingram** Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:59 pm

That actually made me laugh... Razz

I agree with your assessment of the situation. DC doesn't have the nerve to do anything that major with Barry Allen or Hal Jordan, but yet again, the JSA are regarded as unimportant and therefore fair game for whatever stupid stunt comes up this week.

by randy77tx Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:07 pm

You know, if DC would just lease the JSA to Dynamite ...

Well, Dynamite is becoming my new favorite publisher. I'm having a lot of fun with all the pulp heroes. And even though I'm not a Kevin Smith fan, I'm enjoying his Bionic Man. (My only complaint with Smith is his pacing. Too fast, too slow, never even. Only complaint about the art is Jonathan Lau's inability to draw feet.)

by **tony ingram** Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:47 am

Lau isn't the only artist with that particular handicap though, and at least he tries. Unlike Rob Liefeld.

And Dynamite are rapidly rising in my estimation, too...

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:46 pm

Dynamite is doing what DC is trying to do but failing and that is presenting established characters and updating them for modern audiences.

Since I mentioned Bionic Man, I'll go with it. Same characters. Origins for Steve and Jaime are pretty much the same but they've been updated. They're still Steve and Jaime. DC, however, is basically taking the names of characters and making new characters out of them. Not the same. Alan Scott is the currently the prime example. Everything about Steve Austin is intact. His origin, surroundings, etc. have been updated. But it's still the same Steve Austin.

Also, Dynamite apparently doesn't feel the need to remold these characters. To me, DC isn't trying to represent diversity. If they were, why not create NEW characters instead of making old characters things they never were.

Everyone got excited when it was announced that Perry White would be black in the new movie. So? Was Nick Fury always black? If I were to take a crayon and color a 1970s Action Comics have I changed the characters? The story? No. But say I paste a man over all of Lois Lane's appearances and write Louis over her name. What have I done?

Yes, Dynamite is gaining my respect and over the weekend I started gathering up more back issues. Like I said before, DC should license their golden age characters to Dynamite. It's obvious they have no idea what to do with them. Imagine Roy Thomas picking up where he left off. Jerry Ordway illustrating. Better yet, imagine Marvel joining in and the Invaders meet the All-Star Squadron. Ever wonder what kind of "fan fiction" Roy has tucked away somewhere?

by **tony ingram** Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:52 pm

randy77tx wrote: Ever wonder what kind of "fan fiction" Roy has tucked away somewhere?

Only every day since he left DC...

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:12 pm

tony ingram wrote:To me, though, that wasn't the case; the multiverse was gone, but the characters survived, or most of them.

Yes and no. DC's intent, thought it did not happen this way, was to start over, and (as they've done over and over since) say that this was the way it was "meant to have happened", so that these weren't the same characters. I just went with that intention, and decided that they were not the same as the multiversal versions. I mean, an alcoholic GL? Really? I know plenty of alcoholics, and have that disease doesn't do wonders for your will power. And that's just one example.

by **tony ingram** Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:16 pm

I guess it comes down to personal interpretation. People like Roy Thomas were clearly of the opinion that these were the same characters, and a lot of storylines continued uninterrupted throughout, and after, the Crisis, so I went along with what seemed to be the general concensus.

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:36 pm

tony ingram wrote:People like Roy Thomas were clearly of the opinion that these were the same characters

That was the problem, DC did a pretty poor job. They were meant to be entirely new, but they surely weren't.

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:53 pm

I just wish DC had left Earth-Two alone as had been planned.

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:57 pm

Crap! I hate it when I write a long reply and then lose it.

Anyway, I think I asked then before. Where does one draw the final line for the original JSA? Crisis #10? Crisis #11-12 and Last Days? JSA Annual? Somewhere else?

I'm beginning to make the Annual the cutoff. Flawed as it was, it meant a continuation of the characters from 1985/6 pretty much. Look at the butchering and humiliation done to the JSA post-Crisis. I think I'd rather have that as the ending.

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:02 pm

tony ingram wrote:
randy77tx wrote: Ever wonder what kind of "fan fiction" Roy has tucked away somewhere?

Only every day since he left DC...

DC (and Marvel) should let him write a graphic novel (or even a real novel). Let him wrap up All-Star Squadron (guest starring the Invaders).

My wishlist ... Roy could do a crossover, a conclusion to All-Star Squadron, and origins for Mr. Terrific and Wildcat.

by **tony ingram** Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:11 pm

I actually liked a lot of hat was done with the characters post-Crisis. If you re-read the later issues of Infinity Inc, it's surprising how many JSA flashbacks there are and how much of it ties-in with the Golden Age stories. Then, there was the brilliant Secret Origins series, Ostrander's Spectre, Robinson's Starman of course (and that nice two parter in the previous Starman series, which introduced David Knight), and then the Parobeck series, and even the use of Rex Tyler in the Hourman series. Even the first series of JSA was pretty good for the most part-it was after the relaunch that it all went a bit pear shaped. I think the JSA lost its way in 2006. The reintroduction of the multiverse proved to be a missed opportunity, and the murder of Kal-L was unforgiveable.

by **tony ingram** Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:14 pm

randy77tx wrote:
tony ingram wrote:
randy77tx wrote: Ever wonder what kind of "fan fiction" Roy has tucked away somewhere?

Only every day since he left DC...

DC (and Marvel) should let him write a graphic novel (or even a real novel). Let him wrap up All-Star Squadron (guest starring the Invaders).

My wishlist ... Roy could do a crossover, a conclusion to All-Star Squadron, and origins for Mr. Terrific and Wildcat.

I recently bought the issue of the old 1970s Secret Origins series which reprinted Wildcat's origin from Sensation Comics #1. It still stands up as a great story.

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:37 pm

randy77tx wrote:I just wish DC had left Earth-Two alone as had been planned.

Not that we can know for sure, but from what I've read, they DID tell Roy Thomas that they were leaving E-2 alone. I wish they had, too. I enjoyed that earth.

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:41 pm

randy77tx wrote:Crap! I hate it when I write a long reply and then lose it.

Something I've done, and hate, too. Frustrating.

randy77tx wrote:Where does one draw the final line for the original JSA? Crisis #10?

For me, it all ended in COIE #10. That old multiverse is gone, and everything else is new. I just assume there was some kind of superhero/sci-fi reality change that made them all how they would have been if GL 40 had never happened, if the original single universe had occurred as intended. With some minor changes, due to Spectre's actions.

Then again, it doesn't pay to think about this too much. It's a mess. So, just assume it all ended at #10, and whatever stories make it look as though they're the same characters (as Superman IS, until MoS #1) are mistakes. Or something.

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:41 pm

There were a lot of good things but there were a lot of stupid actions too. It's hard to define the JSA. I want to say there are two distinct eras of the JSA: from their formation to Last Days, and from Inferno to the last series. Then I realize if I do that, I pretty much have to say Earth-2 is the next chapter. But on the other hand, it's not, it's an Elseworlds story.

DC has totally screwed us.

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:46 pm

tony ingram wrote:I actually liked a lot of hat was done with the characters post-Crisis.

Oh, I also think a lot of it is well-told, interesting and fun. I just don't think they're the same as Pre-COIE. Similar in ways, but not the same. Makes it easier when reading some things.

tony ingram wrote:and the murder of Kal-L was unforgiveable.

I still wish they'd just left those four characters alone. What they did with them all was pointless and awful. They were in superhero heaven, dragging them out (and making it so ugly) just to kill them off (or make them murderers, and stupid) was too much for me.

by randy77tx Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:51 pm

Roy has stated that Earth-Two would have survived unharmed. I think he even states that in All-Star Squadron. There are many stories about the ending of Crisis. Originally, it was to end at 10, but continued. And when it did continue, thing were never the same. Last Days was a hard read. It was definitely saying goodbye.

Secret Origins was fun but my only complaint is that Roy should have quickly done stories featuring those who perished first, then follow up with the more popular characters.

I learned the last few months that stories/continuity is what you make of it, or how you want to interpret it. Star Trek has been bounced around on another forum. What's canon and what isn't? I enjoy the fan-made new voyages. But am I going to not like it or accept it because someone says its not official?

In my universe, Earth-Two didn't die. It lives. The Enterprise is still on its five-year mission.

My continuity is what I make it.

by Mbast1 Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:44 pm

randy77tx wrote:In my universe, Earth-Two didn't die. It lives. The Enterprise is still on its five-year mission.

My continuity is what I make it.

I agree, and I like doing this kind of thing. I decide for myself. I decided that the four in the Paradise Dimension we saw in IC were duplicates, and the original four are still in the real Paradise Dimension, living forever. I think Kirk is STILL alive in the ribbon, and a time-displaced doppelganger interacted with Picard. I think the COIE didn't happen to the heroes were read pre-Crisis, but to a newly created set of hypertimelines that duplicated them. In stories with so many reality changing events and so many beings capable of altering things, I see no reason to think this all couldn't be true.
Not that that gets me stories based on what I think.
There IS a limit to this, of course, in that you can't argue with people based on suppositions, but only what's in the books. But, that's not what this is about.

As an aside, I made the mistake of going to Comic Book Resources DC forum. There was a thread on there about how to deal with fans who don't like the reboot. Wow. One guy said if DC tried to appeal to those fans, he'd stop reading the books, many said there was no problem except whiny older fans. And more. Apparently DC is hip and new, and belongs to those who got into it less than a year ago, and not the fans who supported the company for decades. Ugly, ugly people.

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