Earth-2 is coming!

So, the newly released convention sketch by Perez: is it a) horrible, b) terrible or c) excruciatingly bad?

Got a link?

But I've come to trust you, and more than like it's: d) all of the above.

That's horrible! Power Girl has never looked nerdier. Can any one say Lisa Hartman?



Seriously, DC is out of control. What happened? Everywhere one looks there's that unholy trinity of Johns, Lee, and Didio.

I understand if you've only been involved in comics for a few years how this all might be exciting, but what about those like us with decades investment? Is DC really making a profit off of this crap? As I said before in "another forum" I have no idea what DC is doing and I don't think they do either.

PS, I must be doing something right!

http://new.dcuwiki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=4135

I know this is supposed to be about Earth-2, but did you see this? Is it just me?

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/03/21/ ... -spoilers/

tony ingram wrote:

I don't know. It looks weird, but it might grow on me. I thought her old costume didn't really fit her character. She was a feminist who wore a bathing suit?

She was a feminist created in 1976 who wore a costume partly inspired by Superman and partly by the female fashions of the time. Looked at in hat context, it made sense, I think. Just as Superman's trunks and leotard look made perfect since in 1938 when that was how circus strongmen dressed.

tony ingram wrote:She was a feminist created in 1976 who wore a costume partly inspired by Superman and partly by the female fashions of the time.

You see, I don't see that at all. First, I don't see what says Superman about it, except maybe the cape. And the female fashions of the time, for feminists, were certainly not bathing suits. That you would have seen on Charlie's Angels, maybe.

Maybe, but the whole high boots and boob window thing is classic 70's.

So, do you believe Robinson when he says, "Quite honestly, this is a return to the old pre-"Crisis" Earth-Two. This is what we had for decades before "Crisis on Infinite Earths."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=37826

And, what's your thoughts on the new Alan Scott?

I don't believe Robinson, no. He was asked a direct question-was the established continuity being entirely ditched-and he dodged it completely. And Alan's costume appears to be reminiscent of a GL Corps uniform. I don't believe this will be Earth Two in any recognizable form.

I have to agree with you. And I can't decide if Alan's costume is GLC inspired or Kingdom Come. Either way, this is not Earth-Two. It totally lacks the charm the original had being a parallel world where one had a Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman who were the same but different. Heroes like Flash, Green Lantern and Atom who had the same names but were completely different. Heroes like Huntress and Power Girl who had Earth-One counterparts but different backgrounds. And of course, those who were unique to Earth-Two.

I can't tell what Alan's new costume even looks like with all that fire. What I can see, though, is certainly better than Jay's. I really hate that costume, though.

Good news about Al Pratt, I guess. Except it's not really him.

Jay appears to have stolen his new helmet from Johnny Quick of Earth Three.

Sam_Vimes wrote:Good news about Al Pratt, I guess. Except it's not really him.

Haven't heard anything. What's up?

tony ingram wrote:I don't believe Robinson, no. He was asked a direct question-was the established continuity being entirely ditched-and he dodged it completely.

It's PR blather. It's all meant to sound like it means something, but it doesn't.

I'm absurdly disappointed in Robinson. I thought he had more integrity.

You know how I feel about the situation. Robinson sold us out. The same way DC did. I mean, with the original Crisis, the JSA wasn't forgotten. Discontinued use and they were given a proper (although a bit too morbid) sendoff. Even with Zero Hour, which in my opinion was far more damning, the JSA is still remembered, heritage and legacy were still intact. And a few still survived. This isn't the same. It's an Elseworlds title. And we can't even complain about things, or even reminisce because of the idiot newbies.

Well, you can here! In fact, providing you moderate your language (something certain of those "idiot newbies" seem i ncapable of, we actively encourage it!

Crikey: the Official Grumpy Old Guys Forum!

randy77tx wrote:

Sam_Vimes wrote:Good news about Al Pratt, I guess. Except it's not really him.

Haven't heard anything. What's up?

If you're referring to my first sentence: He's been confirmed as a player in Earth 2.

If you're referring to the second: It's not really him because, as has been said (possibly by you, I'm too lazy to go back and look), this is essentially an elseworlds. I love Al Pratt, so his "return" probably stings me a little more than it should.

I just don't see the point if it isn't really our Al.

Exactly! They're all just dopplegangers. DC doesn't seem to get why there's an emotional disconnect with this New 52 business, but it's plainly obvious to those of us who have been afflicted with it: Just because they're a lot like them doesn't mean they ARE them. I mean, it's like they've made a whole UNIVERSE of Ben Reillys but there's no Peter Parker hanging around "just in case".

I don't think they understand the concept of readers being emotionally invested in the characters. That's been obvious since Didio's remark in response to queries about the JSA last year that they were "resting this concept for a while". Not resting the characters, you'll notice, which is what was being asked, but "resting the concept". Similarly, the whole thing about Earth 2 being "everything you want but not what you expect"; did they honestly think any JSA fan wanted rebooted versions of the characters? Do they think we're all that superficial?

tony ingram wrote:Crikey: the Official Grumpy Old Guys Forum!

Well, at least it fits me!

Sam_Vimes wrote: It's not really him because, as has been said (possibly by you, I'm too lazy to go back and look), this is essentially an elseworlds.

I've always considered all the characters post-COIE to be entirely new, and NOT the ones from the old multiverse.

tony ingram wrote:I don't think they understand the concept of readers being emotionally invested in the characters.

I have thought about this off and on. It's serial fiction, being emotionally invested is part of how they keep you coming back, they almost have to know. But, then, they expect you to shrug that off whenever they decide to make a change, and go with it, as though just because they tell you it's the same, you have to buy it. Or, they show outright disdain for the fans who kept the old characters viable. I don't know, it's a issue with a lot of conflicting positions, but I find it strange how often fans will just shrug off having the company treat them like crap for not being loyal to the company, no matter what.

Mbast1 wrote:

tony ingram wrote:I don't think they understand the concept of readers being emotionally invested in the characters.

I have thought about this off and on. It's serial fiction, being emotionally invested is part of how they keep you coming back, they almost have to know. But, then, they expect you to shrug that off whenever they decide to make a change, and go with it, as though just because they tell you it's the same, you have to buy it. Or, they show outright disdain for the fans who kept the old characters viable. I don't know, it's a issue with a lot of conflicting positions, but I find it strange how often fans will just shrug off having the company treat them like crap for not being loyal to the company, no matter what.

Well, the fact that a lot of fans do inexplicably seem to have the mentality that the company is God doesn't help.

tony ingram wrote:Well, the fact that a lot of fans do inexplicably seem to have the mentality that the company is God doesn't help.

Of course not, and that's part of the problem. The company, being made of many people, uses whatever any particular individual notices to sell. It doesn't care that at times it does one thing, and at times another. Some (many?) people DO have loyalty to the company as an entity, and that is why we get some of what we get.

Mbast1 wrote:

Sam_Vimes wrote: It's not really him because, as has been said (possibly by you, I'm too lazy to go back and look), this is essentially an elseworlds.

I've always considered all the characters post-COIE to be entirely new, and NOT the ones from the old multiverse.

This is my problem. Post-Crisis is when all the problems really started. For instance, both Huntress and Dr. Fate were very popular characters, and what does DC do? They destroy them and rebuild them. I'm willing to make Zero Hour the cutoff date for the JSA.

By the way, I was killed in a car accident last week, decapitated, and my entrails fed to hungry wolves and this is my best friend telling you this.

So, glad I stopped posting there. Can you ever forgive me?

randy77tx wrote:By the way, I was killed in a car accident last week, decapitated, and my entrails fed to hungry wolves and this is my best friend telling you this.

So, glad I stopped posting there. Can you ever forgive me?

That particular poster has gotten beyond a joke. There are some people I would happily feed to hungry wolves. But hey, at least we're moderately civilized here...

randy77tx wrote:

Mbast1 wrote:

Sam_Vimes wrote: It's not really him because, as has been said (possibly by you, I'm too lazy to go back and look), this is essentially an elseworlds.

I've always considered all the characters post-COIE to be entirely new, and NOT the ones from the old multiverse.

This is my problem. Post-Crisis is when all the problems really started. For instance, both Huntress and Dr. Fate were very popular characters, and what does DC do? They destroy them and rebuild them. I'm willing to make Zero Hour the cutoff date for the JSA.

The problem with making Zero Hour the cut-off point is, that would leave both Robinson's Starman and Sandman Mystery Theatre out in the cold, not to mention Ostrander's Spectre series. A lot of good stuff was done with the JSA in the years after Zero Hour. I don't think it all started to go wrong until the JSA series ended and was replaced by the Justice Society of America title .

randy77tx wrote:This is my problem. Post-Crisis is when all the problems really started. For instance, both Huntress and Dr. Fate were very popular characters, and what does DC do? They destroy them and rebuild them. I'm willing to make Zero Hour the cutoff date for the JSA.

This is an area where Tony and I disagree, I think. See, to me, DC dumped JSA's history at COIE. Sure, they went back to some of it later, but it was just such a mess after COIE.

tony ingram wrote:The problem with making Zero Hour the cut-off point is, that would leave both Robinson's Starman and Sandman Mystery Theatre out in the cold, not to mention Ostrander's Spectre series. A lot of good stuff was done with the JSA in the years after Zero Hour. I don't think it all started to go wrong until the JSA series ended and was replaced by the Justice Society of America title .

Well, you can always just (to yourself, of course) assume all the good stuff "really" happened before ZH, and that it just didn't get told until after. I rearrange things like that all the time.

Well, Crisis ended it all, of course. There was no turning back after they decided to end Earth-Two. Poor Roy Thomas was under the assumption that Earth-Two was safe ... and for a while, so did we.

As Tony and I discussed in another thread, the post-Crisis/pre-Zero hour JSA series is very good, very faithful, and is what would be expected of a continuation of the JSA. And while I did enjoy SMT and Starman, there was just too much hokeyness afterwards. There was a disregard for continuity, etc. before, but now it was just gone to hell. I think it started with Hippolyta. I know a lot of fans embraced her, but for me it was stupidity. WHY get rid of a golden age Wonder Woman to begin with? The JSA series was total bull. It never found itself. The JSA was on the sidelines. It was flooded with unimaginative characters who are best forgotten.

I'm still rewriting DC history in a pro Earth-Two style. Just really swamped at work lately.

I'll get some input from you guys later.

On Hippolyta, we're in agreement. Definitely not one of Byrne's better ideas (though to be honest, I don't think he's really had a good idea since his first run on Sensational She-Hulk). Even the Miss America retcon worked better than Hippolyta. At least you could imagine Joan Dale acting as the JSA's secretary...

I was happy with either Miss America or Fury, but to go through all that and then say Hippolyta was the golden age Wonder Woman is total nonsense. Diana's origin works best with a World War II setting (though Perez did a good job) like Captain America. DC never thinks things through. They impulsively do something and think a retcon will fix things. Look at Hawkman. Or the Legion.

I know. I could never really understand why either Wonder Woman or Green Arrow (after the whole Nebula Man time warp thing) couldn't have simply retained their WWII origins after Crisis; just merge the Earth One and Earth Two versions for God's sake, Diana is immortal, why couldn't the JLA's young Diana be the same one who served with the JSA in the forties? It worked on the TV show, after all...

tony ingram wrote:why couldn't the JLA's young Diana be the same one who served with the JSA in the forties?

Because everything has to happen NOW. I don't get it either.
Then again, I actually thought having Hippolyta be the GA WW was a good idea. Fun. And given the constraints, it wasn't the worst way to get a WW back then.

If she couldn't simply be immortal, I'd have had the modern Diana simply time travel back to the forties for a few years, become her own predecessor, then return to the exact moment she left from after the JSA disbanded in 1950. See, I can think of better explanations than John Byrne!

tony ingram wrote:If she couldn't simply be immortal,

Did they ever say how old she was anyway? I thought she WAS immortal, and had been born long ago.

tony ingram wrote:If she couldn't simply be immortal, I'd have had the modern Diana simply time travel back to the forties

Yeah, she could use the cosmic treadmill

tony ingram wrote:I know. I could never really understand why either Wonder Woman or Green Arrow (after the whole Nebula Man time warp thing) couldn't have simply retained their WWII origins after Crisis; just merge the Earth One and Earth Two versions for God's sake, Diana is immortal, why couldn't the JLA's young Diana be the same one who served with the JSA in the forties? It worked on the TV show, after all...

That's my thoughts.

Now, do you really want Earth-Two back? Here's part from an ongoing online comic set after The Flash #137 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/279964705390612/):

randy77tx wrote:Now, do you really want Earth-Two back?

I'm torn by things like this, these kinds of fan projects. On one hand, I want to not like them, and think that people should expend the energy creating their own things. On the other hand, I often wind up loving them. Some of them are so amazing it's not funny. This one looks great. Thanks.

Certainly better than anything DC have done with the characters lately, and the art has a wonderfully authentic look. I want to see more!

Mbast1 wrote:

tony ingram wrote:If she couldn't simply be immortal,

Did they ever say how old she was anyway? I thought she WAS immortal, and had been born long ago.

She was, but Earth Two Diana gave up her immortality in order to marry Steve Trevor. That's why she started to age more or less normally.

tony ingram wrote:She was, but Earth Two Diana gave up her immortality in order to marry Steve Trevor. That's why she started to age more or less normally.

Right, so why did DC make her active only in the modern age? To complete the trinity? It's just odd.

Mbast1 wrote:

randy77tx wrote:Now, do you really want Earth-Two back?

I'm torn by things like this, these kinds of fan projects. On one hand, I want to not like them, and think that people should expend the energy creating their own things. On the other hand, I often wind up loving them. Some of them are so amazing it's not funny. This one looks great. Thanks.

This one is good. It's a slow process and that is what I find most stressful. No, if a fan wants to use his energies on the JSA, let him. Myths and legends are being retold and added to even today. My problem with fan projects is when it becomes fantasy. That is, when it becomes more wish fulfillment. Plots are predictable -- usually a "what if", return from the dead, gender reversal and holiday stories. Characters don't act or talk the way expected. Awkward scenes ranging from gushy teeney bopper romance to violent gay slash find their ways into stories. This work, however, seems pretty faithful to the time period.

Tony, I noticed your discussion at "another site". It's sad today's readers have no respect for stories past. I thought that poster's claims -- everything from being a 40-year-veteran to calling Conway's and Thomas' scripts fan fiction to be ridiculous. I honestly feel that DC has destroyed the comic book world. I've never seen such a schism between the fans before. The beginning of the end?