Earth-2 is coming!

I agree there's a schism, and DC have inadvertently created it; I'm seeing a huge divide between old and new fans for the first time I can remember. But the beginning of the end? No. For one thing, it's only really affecting the DC fan community, not the mainstream comics community as a whole. And for another, mainstream US comics are not the entirety of the comic book world (not even the US comic book world). I think it may be the beginning of the end for DC's own fan community, though.

tony ingram wrote:I'm seeing a huge divide between old and new fans for the first time I can remember.

I think it's been there for a long time. Especially since COIE. I've seen these kinds of huge arguments over many things (Hal vs. Kyle?) over the years. This might have fanned it larger, but it's long been there. IMO.

I don't recall those arguments ever getting quite so bitter and personal, though. Maybe I'm just pining for the days of the fanzines and the letter columns, where if debates developed, they tended to be (of necessity) more considered, and as a result more civilized. That's the downside to the instantaneous communication of the internet, I think.

tony ingram wrote:I don't recall those arguments ever getting quite so bitter and personal, though. Maybe I'm just pining for the days of the fanzines and the letter columns, where if debates developed, they tended to be (of necessity) more considered, and as a result more civilized. That's the downside to the instantaneous communication of the internet, I think.

Yep. I love the internet, but I also hate it. It encourages a lot of horrible behavior.

I was excited about that other site but it's already out of hand with know-it-all newbies, hardcore fanboys, and adolescent attention whores.

Part of me wants to jump on the bandwagon and say, yeah! this is all brand new stuff! I can start all over! But on the other hand, why scrap 75 years of continuity, legacy, heritage, history?

I know stories, myths, and legends are forever retold. I just saw Wrath of the Titans last weekend. It's 2012 and we're still making movies of the Olympian gods. Updating the DC mythos isn't wrong. But one corner of the DC universe had a human quality to it. A little planet called Earth-Two. Legends lived; legends died. Starting all over destroys what made Earth-Two unique.

I don't think DC think 'unique' sells comics.

I need your opinion about something.

When I was a kid, I had the Michael Fleisher encyclopedias. And I followed up with every biographical piece published by DC or in a fanzine. I always wanted a JSA encyclopedia for myself. What got me back on this kick was my recent posts about what the Earth-2 title could be and the JSA Sourcebook I recently purchased for my brother (and eventually got one for myself).

So, I've been working on what I consider a 2-volume work -- pre-Crisis aned post-Crisis. For the most part, it'd be compling entries from the old Who's Who and Seret Files and Origins. Pretty simple. And I'd edit as needed. Just one thing. For the JSA members, I'm torn between short and to the point Who's Who entries and the detailed entries here:

http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/MEMLIST.html

Which would you do?

By the way, I decided all my JSA member illustrations are by Joe Staton.

While the completist in me favours the long version, even one of them is an awful lot of text and potentially somewhat daunting for the casual browser. I guess the obvious question is, is this primarily for you, or will you be sharing it? If the latter, I'd go with the short form to make it more accessible.

Haven't really decided yet. I might post Batman later in the week and see what you think. LOL, remember when I asked about an All-Star wiki at the old DC board. I was ridiculed for 7 pages!

Yes. I really miss the old DC board, it was such...fun...

Actually, now that I think about it, though... a lot of the time, it wasn't.

It could be, but it wasn't. I have up because of the lack of moderation -- allowing colonyofcells free reign on the JSA board was frustrating. I thought there would be better management at another site but ...

It's quite aggravating. How am I going to get my JSA fix? I've been re-reading old books. Thinking about a fanfiction. Compiling an encyclopedia. But it's not the same. And what's worse is the debut of this new title which we were led to believe would be the REAL JSA.

Then, try to discuss that frustration at other sites, and get the smackdown by newbies. "You're just old!" Hell, maybe I am.

I'd rather be old than wilfully ignorant. I've never understood the mentality that says anything new is automatically better than anything old. If something isn't broken, why fix it?

tony ingram wrote:I'd rather be old than wilfully ignorant.

Same here. And I read a piece by Joan Bakewell in the Telegraph the other day saying that life gets much better once you've turned 70, so we've all got that to look forward to

By the time you reach 70, Luce, you'll have to be 80 before you can retire...

tony ingram wrote:By the time you reach 70, Luce, you'll have to be 80 before you can retire...

I don't care. I'm no good at handling free time anyway. And why would I want to retire? To spend more time with the grandchildren I haven't got?

Lucy McGough wrote:

tony ingram wrote:By the time you reach 70, Luce, you'll have to be 80 before you can retire...

I don't care. I'm no good at handling free time anyway. And why would I want to retire? To spend more time with the grandchildren I haven't got?

Do you fancy comin g round and doing the washing up, then? I ask purely in order to rid you of unwelcome free time, of course. I'm kind, like that.

Very kind indeed, to pay for a return ticket from Bolton to Ipswich - and the bus fare

On second thought, I'd hate to spoil your lovely soft hands with all that harsh hot water...

[quote="Lucy McGough"]

tony ingram wrote: And why would I want to retire?

Yeah, I've never understood the desire to retire myself. I get bored too easily.

Mbast1 wrote:Yeah, I've never understood the desire to retire myself. I get bored too easily.

In that case, apparently Tony's got some washing up that needs doing...

Lucy McGough wrote:In that case, apparently Tony's got some washing up that needs doing...

That's a long way to go just to wash some dishes.

Still not impressed.

28 Leaked Photos Of DC Comics' "New 52: Second Wave"

randy77tx wrote:Still not impressed.

28 Leaked Photos Of DC Comics' "New 52: Second Wave"

Yes, it does seem to be a case of lots of pretty pictures with not much substance behind them. And haven't we seen 'The War that Time Forgot' done several times before?

Nice new avatar by the way, Randy. Makes its point very well, I think.

Thanks.

I've been reading comments at other places and it's more of the sickening exclamations as if comics just came about with 52, as if it's some great enlightenment. Most act as if we're stuck in the dark ages and this is some God-given renaissance.

I admit to partly being enthused about a fresh start, but its DC's attitude and deceit that kills it. Add to that the stupidity of the newbies (great movie title, by the way -- and maybe a little offensive but it certainly applies) which almost seems pushed by DC. It's all made to feel like we're being pushed into a retirement home. And there is absolutely no respect for the masters (Fox, Thomas, Conway, Schwartz, etc.) who paved the way for DiDio, Johns, and Lee.

I don't mean to rant or repeat anything I've said before. If one is in favor of 52, that's great. I encourage you to read and support it. But show some respect and try to see things from my point of few. If I respect you, then respect me. I have an opinion. Respect that. I'm sick of the the forums becoming a battleground.

Again, I apologize for ranting but some of the posts I read this morning were nothing but propaganda and slander.

And, as so many have pointed out, I can always reread my old books.

I see Chris Rob e rson has become the latest creator to express his dissatisfaction, this time over the Watchmen prequels. He said he would not be working for DC again after his current story arc in Fairest, and they immediately fired him. Good for Chris.

randy77tx wrote:and this is some God-given renaissance.

I know. Give me a break, they're superhero comics. Whoopee.

randy77tx wrote:Add to that the stupidity of the newbies (great movie title, by the way -- and maybe a little offensive but it certainly applies) which almost seems pushed by DC. It's all made to feel like we're being pushed into a retirement home.

That's been the feel for a long time. They seem to vacillate between wanting our dollars and trying to make us feel unwelcome.

[/quote]But show some respect and try to see things from my point of few. If I respect you, then respect me. I have an opinion. Respect that. I'm sick of the the forums becoming a battleground.[/quote]

That sometimes feel as though it's what the internet is for.

It's spreading:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/25/flashpoint-animated-feature-dc-kevin-conroy/

Sam_Vimes wrote:It's spreading:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/25/flashpoint-animated-feature-dc-kevin-conroy/

I'm not really surprised. They're pushing that continuity, so they're making the animated series line up. One of the complaints post-COIE was that their ancillary material didn't really match up, so they must think it's a mistake they need not to repeat.

Mbast1 wrote:

Sam_Vimes wrote:It's spreading:

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/04/25/flashpoint-animated-feature-dc-kevin-conroy/

I'm not really surprised. They're pushing that continuity, so they're making the animated series line up. One of the complaints post-COIE was that their ancillary material didn't really match up, so they must think it's a mistake they need not to repeat.

Then it's a shame pretty much every piece of licensed material out there is still using the iconic Superman costume, really...

tony ingram wrote:Then it's a shame pretty much every piece of licensed material out there is still using the iconic Superman costume, really...

Not for long. I was reading an article the other day about the upcoming Superman movie and the new S and lack of red underwear. WB is going to push it. They want everyone to forget anything pre-Flashpoint. I'll try to find the article. It talked about this being too many changes all at once.

There is another article that says that the World's Greatest Superfriends DVD is being held up not because that season was "inspired" upon literary tales (that's bull right there because they changed everything -- Captain Nemo became Nimoy???) but because of Flashpoint.

Way to go DC.

That's absurd.

tony ingram wrote: That's absurd.

No, that's the new DC.

Well, it's still early morning on this side of the pond. In fact, I'm still in bed checking emails before showering and breakfast and off to work. Anyway, I did take a few minutes to look at the previews for Earth-2 and Worlds' Finest and to read the spoilers/previews. As I've said, I refuse to support this fiasco, and I see my money has been well saved. I'll make plenty of comments a little later. This is just a heads up. Maybe you guys want to check things out so we can discuss later.

Now that Earth-2 is finally here, we can finally say Earth-Two is dead.

One thing I have to say before going: from the spoilers/reviews I've read, this is the stupidest trash DC has come out with since Johns' Walking Dead ripoff. It's stupid, makes no sense, riddled with errors, weak plotting, and downright insulting.

I read the previews myself and was not impressed. Even the accompanying text irritated me:"shrinking do-gooder Al Pratt"? Since when, exactly? I think as far as I'm concerned, DC have burned their last bridges. A shame.

"but Earth 2, (I'm sorry to say to some), is going to be a top twenty seller."

And you know who helped it out? We did. DiDio purposefully enticed the scorned older readers by using variations of silver age phrases "earth-two" and "world's finest" to lure us into hyping the books. We were -- and don't let the newbies say we weren't -- led to believe that these books were holdovers from the pre-Flashpoint era. The more talked and speculated, the more new readers became interested resulting in free publicity. Bring on Levitz and Robinson and Perez and it sounds like a love fest, doesn't it?

Sounds like Al Pratt will be nuked with shrinking abilities and Flash gains his powers from Mercury. Mercury? So is DC back to using the Roman names? I kinda feel like with the gods dying mercury seeking out Jay Garrick that maybe the gods will merge/imbue/bestow their powers and/or immortality to the JSA members. I can seen Green Lantern as a modern day Jupiter or Vulcan.

There's a lot of sloppy writing by both Robinson and Levitz. Not impressed by Perez's artwork anymore. What used to be top of the line has become so imitated that Perez looks like a copy of himself. And Scott's art is just too busy.

This is just an Elseworlds tale. If DC wanted a parallel world to accompany the new universe, why not make it the original? Just creating a parallel world to have one doesn't make sense. When DC introduced parallel worlds it was to explain why the original heroes could exist along with their newer counterparts. "The concept of multiple Earths has been a part of DC lore for decades. " Yes, but this isn't an homage to times gone by, this is adding insult to injury.

Agreed on all points. I'm very disappointed in Robinson. I doubt I'll be buying any more of his work anytime soon. I genuinely thought he had real affection for the Golden Age heroes.

randy77tx wrote:We were -- and don't let the newbies say we weren't -- led to believe that these books were holdovers <SNIP> Yes, but this isn't an homage to times gone by, this is adding insult to injury.

That's the problem. DC has teased the older readers with this stuff for decades, and it's always been a slap in the face. And we keep taking it.

I've found the perfect way of not taking it anymore Saves money, too.

tony ingram wrote:I've found the perfect way of not taking it anymore Saves money, too.

I think we have the same solution.

I cannot believe the posts at another site. Most immature I've seen in a while, and most bloodthirsty. Poor Tony!

Well, I said I would not spend my money on the new titles (Earth-2 and Worlds' Finest) but a friend bought me a copy of each, so I'll read them and give an honest review. But I don't see what the big deal is about reading them. If I've seen the previews and read the spoilers, then I know I'm not going to like it. I'm allergic to shellfish. I'm not eating anything with shellfish as an ingredient. The dish might be aromatic, appealing to the eyes, but if it's shellfish, I'm not eating it. I'm still allowed to voice an opinion. If I were a paid reviewer or critic, then I can see where it would be of necessity to read the comic. Times have come to an end.

The place is dominated by newbies with a hive-mind mentality. You will think everything DC publ ish is great! I like it, and DC say it's great, so it must be!

I had hoped that site would be different, but ...

Anyway, I went to the comic book shop with a friend who was picking up his regulars. He bought me Earth-2 and Worlds' Finest and I bought Garfield. Yes, Garfield. I read Garfield. Haven't picked up the others. LOL

What's your take on Robinson supposedly saying Earth-2 was originally Earth-Two set in the Golden Age but scrapped and revamped for this?

I think someone at Time Warner at a level higher than Didio said "we must appeal to the kids. No more stuff that isn't contemporary, no more old guys, no mention of anything before today". That's what I now believe.

You could be right.

randy77tx wrote:You could be right.

Some of the decisions that have been made make no sense from any point of view I'd expect anyone involved on the creative side to hold. Not even Didio.

randy77tx wrote:I cannot believe the posts at another site. Most immature I've seen in a while, and most bloodthirsty. Poor Tony!

I have been on Comicbook Resources off and on, and it's a pain, seriously. A lot of people are so rabidly pro-corporation and anti-creator it's not funny. I find it hard to have a conversation with people who only care about making sure they get their superhero comics, and not a bit about the people who create what they love.

Mbast1 wrote:

randy77tx wrote:I cannot believe the posts at another site. Most immature I've seen in a while, and most bloodthirsty. Poor Tony!

I have been on Comicbook Resources off and on, and it's a pain, seriously. A lot of people are so rabidly pro-corporation and anti-creator it's not funny. I find it hard to have a conversation with people who only care about making sure they get their superhero comics, and not a bit about the people who create what they love.

That's the thing that really gets to me. Why are they like that? Dothey actually think the corporations in question appreciate their loyalty? Why is pure capitalism with no conscience an ideal to be admired?

tony ingram wrote:That's the thing that really gets to me. Why are they like that? Dothey actually think the corporations in question appreciate their loyalty? Why is pure capitalism with no conscience an ideal to be admired?

Many American libertarians and conservatives really believe (in the religious sense, I mean) that capitalism is the ONLY moral form of economy. Many of them, IME, seem to think that it's ok to have an "elite" and that they'll be in it soon enough. I used to be a libertarian myself, and you have to buy into a whole set of ideas about who is "worthy" and who isn't, and one of the basic ideas is that if you're rich, you deserve it. So corporations deserve what they have. It's hard to explain, since so much of it is nonsense.

That sounds almost like self perpetuating slavery, to me.

tony ingram wrote:That sounds almost like self perpetuating slavery, to me.

Stupidity. (And I'm leaving aside a point about slavery, on purpose...)

But, they all seem to expect to be the master, not the slave.