Earth-2 is coming!

Mbast1 wrote:

tony ingram wrote:That sounds almost like self perpetuating slavery, to me.

Stupidity. (And I'm leaving aside a point about slavery, on purpose...)

But, they all seem to expect to be the master, not the slave.

And any kind of empathy with those less fortunate or "worthy" doesn't come into it, I assume.

tony ingram wrote:And any kind of empathy with those less fortunate or "worthy" doesn't come into it, I assume.

For the most part, no. I've seen many libertarians tear into some few who DID have that kind of empathy. Mary Ruwart (MD and libertarian writer) is often ridiculed by other libertarians for her emotion.
Then again, accusing your opponent of being emotional is a debate tactic I've seen many times.

Okay ... still not read Earth-2 but -- as we all know -- I've been working on the ultimate JSA/Earth-Two timeline and I think I can include Earth-2. Just saying.

But it still doesn't make up for things.

Did you read my idea as to what may have 'really' happened to the JSA?

Yes, and it ties in with things. I'll post more about that later.

I still haven't read the first issue. Even though I didn't pay for it, I still feel a bit guilty. I've been reading the reviews at CBR and they're a little more realistic than at DCUWiki. The art is gorgeous, of course, but Robinson's writing is reported as clunky. Supposedly, like The Shade, Robinson had to re-write Earth-2 which was originally what we all wanted: THE JSA in their prime in WW II. If Robinson had to rewrite this fit DCnU, it makes sense. There's still the rumor of Donna Troy. It's been said Robinson plans to bring someone from his JLA run into this title. My guess would be Congorilla or Starman. Either would fit better than Donna Troy who has no connection at all.

If I can convince myself of this alternate reality, I might be able to like the book. We'll see.

As I recall, Congorilla and Starman are on the main DCnU Earth in The Shade series. Or they were in the first issues, before I ditched that title too.

As you can see, DC has no concrete plan; they're making it up as they go.

Did you read my post about the Avengers and Justice League? Thanos and Darkseid? Only Jones can confuse ripoff for homage.

I tend to agree. Too many coincidental similarities.

tony ingram wrote:I tend to agree. Too many coincidental similarities.

Yes, and Geoff Johns is more than comics, he's a Hollywood man. He probably saw a script. Too many similarities, the timing, the plot, the villain. Not to mention Johns is a hack.

Earth-2. I read it. If I keep in mind my alternate reality and your assumptions, Tony, I can enjoy the book. Still, I'd rather have had the real thing.

Story: The first part is all about the Trinity. It's classic Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. There's a lot of first name-calling. Wonder Woman laments over being the last Amazon of "Amazon Island." Superman laments over the destruction of Metropolis and the off-screen death of Lois Lane. Others seem to believe something going on between Superman and Wonder Woman, but I didn't pick up on this. Others also believed this to be a prequel to Kingdom Come, but that's not the case either as all three perish. It's the conclusion to a story and feels like walking in at the end of a movie. There's a lot of exposition in the dialogue but nothing much here. If Robinson truly meant for this to open with World War II, no explanation is needed (well, for some -- I doubt the newbies have an understanding for ancient history), but there's no real exposition for Earth-2. I hope this will be explored later. Mercury plays a large part of the story and tells how the gods are dropping like flies. Five years later he shows up to give young Jay Garrick purpose. Joan Williams has just dumped him to go work for Tyler Chemical. Alan Scott recaps the end of the heroes. Al Pratt was a soldier five years ago. To be absolutely honest, nothing much happens. It's the most dialogue I've seen since Roy Thomas. And that's probably why some newbies were turned off. They want storybooks; not comic books.

Art: Nicola's art is perfect. I read one poster say the coloring was bad, and it was. Usually it's the inker who doesn't agree with the artist, but the colors were way off. Even in places where more vibrant colors are needed, they're darker hues. Maybe this was an editorial decision but it didn't work. However, the pencils and inks were top notch.

THE VERDICT: If I consider this a next generation to the original, it's okay. It's not up there with previous JSA-related titles. It's superior to the last series, but not up there with All-Star Squadron. Will I buy the next issue on my own? I'm not sure. Part of me wants to see Jay Garrick become the Flash but it's kinda goofy. The new costume is so hokey and having Mercury bestow speed upon him (assuming he does this and no hard water fumes, lol) not using the helmet that is so synonymous Jay is lost. The Trinity seemed to have been in character, but Supergirl and Robin were a bit different. Superman never had a relationship with Power Girl like that. This was more pre-Crisis Superman/Supergirl and almost reminiscent of Supergirl's demise in Crisis. On the other hand, it is interesting to see how a Batman/Huntress relationship would have worked out. Nice scenes. Jay and Alan seem to be more closer to their original appearances than their elder statesmen roles in the DCU. Like I said, I want to see how they become Flash and Green Lantern, but nothing else seems to be drawing me back. Basically, it was predictable and not very well written. This is not Robinson's A game. Final word: If you're interested in the least, wait for the trade.

Robinson is at his best when he's writing the characters he actually wants to write. If, as it seems, this was supposed to be an original JSA series but he was forced to change it, then as with JLA, this was almost certainly not the team he wanted to write. Hence, not his best work.

You're correct.

Now, Worlds' Finest. Talk about trying to please everyone! You have Power Girl, Huntress (actually both of them), Levitz and Perez. And left with clunky dialogue, non action scenes, and art that looks like 70s/80s Saturday morning animation. While Earth-2 could have used more backstory, that's all WF is. And it's all so wordy. Useless dialogue. Very little action. Levitz tries really hard to come full circle with the heroines and the last time he wrote for them that it becomes too obvious. The beginning scene is so forced and a copy of All-Star Comics #74. We're hit over the head instead of gently reminded. And he tries to write for them just as he did then but it doesn't work. It's very weak. And Perez's art is so bland these days. It's as if another artist is trying to copy him. Most disappointing of all is Wil Moss failed to check Levitz's grammar. I appreciate my friend Robbie buying me these two comics but I'm glad I didn't spend my money on them.

While I might be intrigued to see E-2 #2 and Jay Garrick become Flash, nothing at all prompted me to see the next issue of Worlds' Finest.

All in all, DC isn't producing anything new or exciting. I wish I could have said more about the two titles. I'm surprised I had this much to say. I think if Robinson was writing about the Golden Age, it all would have been different. Earth-2 looked promising if I'm wearing my Golden Age blinders, if I try to look at it as World War II and not parademons and try to guess where he was originally going. I'd love a "director's cut". I'm glad I had the opportunity to review the two issues. I regret not being able to say more, but there's nothing really to say. In the end, it's not the JSA, and in the end, I still feel empty.

Well, if nothing else you've saved me the trouble of reading them in the shop...

My civic duty!

And I'm just back from seeing Avengers again!

randy77tx wrote:My civic duty!

And I'm just back from seeing Avengers again!

Twice in one weekend? Must be good...

Just as good the second time around. Still packed, still sold out. And still seeing similarities between it and JL. Still, it's an awesome ride.

randy77tx wrote:As you can see, DC has no concrete plan; they're making it up as they go.

It has seemed this way since COIE in '86. But, it's definitely felt worse since Infinite Crisis, in that they seem to change directions almost randomly. I would guess it's behind the scenes, probably upper-management, "stuff", but it really does seem as though they're just doing whatever until the change comes.
I begin to wonder if the Superboy Prime wall-punch isn't really behind it all.

randy77tx wrote:Others also believed this to be a prequel to Kingdom Come, but that's not the case either as all three perish.

They killed of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman in the first issue? I really am not missing anything by skipping this.

tony ingram wrote:If, as it seems, this was supposed to be an original JSA series but he was forced to change it,

Do you know on what people are basing this? I have seen it a few times, and it's hardly the first time it has come up (that DC nixed a return to the old multiversal ideas), but I don't know if it's more than just speculation.

Mbast1 wrote:

tony ingram wrote:If, as it seems, this was supposed to be an original JSA series but he was forced to change it,

Do you know on what people are basing this? I have seen it a few times, and it's hardly the first time it has come up (that DC nixed a return to the old multiversal ideas), but I don't know if it's more than just speculation.

I believe Robinson stated in a recent interview that the series he was originally supposed to be writing would have been set in World War II and featured the original JSA. DC later torpedoed that idea when they decided at a later stage to do away with the Golden Age heroes, which is also why a scene featuring Jay Garrick and a reference to the Starman Museum in Opal City were removed from The Shade #1 between the online preview and the actual issue hitting stores.

I have to say this is an improvement over the lunchbox outfit Alan was sporting at the end of JSA.

To be honest, that isn't saying much. A flour sack and a pair of flourescent bunny ears would be an improvement over that.

tony ingram wrote:which is also why a scene featuring Jay Garrick and a reference to the Starman Museum in Opal City were removed from The Shade #1 between the online preview and the actual issue hitting stores.

I saw a story about this. Wish I'd gotten to see those preview pics. Really, DC just doesn't seem to know what it's doing.

I have a question: has Watchmen been folded into regular continuity like Wildstorm? If so, doesn't this mean -- continuity wise -- that the JSA has been replaced by Watchmen as the first superheroes? With the prequel series announced, it would make sense why the JSA has become just another super-hero team in the present instead of the original superhero team.

I don't think so. it would be pretty much impossible to fit Watchmen into continuity given how it ended. I don't think DC care one way or another; Dan Didio apparently told one questioning fan on Free Comic Book Day that "continuity is overrated", which pretty much tells you all you need to know about him and about DC's current policies (he also said there was no chance of the old DCU returning).

That's what I thought but wasn't sure. So much has been cut & paste, one can never tell with DiDio/Johns/Lee.

Forget DC. Think I'll see Avengers for a third time.

I want a Defenders movie, now. Just trying to think who could play Dr. Strange, Valkyie, Nighthawk and Namor...and either the Headmen or the Squadron Sinister as villains...

I see they've unveiled the new Hawkgirl. Looks nothing like the original, and predictably, it's apparently Kendra Saunders, not Shiera.

tony ingram wrote:Dan Didio apparently told one questioning fan on Free Comic Book Day that "continuity is overrated", which pretty much tells you all you need to know about him and about DC's current policies (he also said there was no chance of the old DCU returning).

I always find it interesting when publishers show outright contempt for fans. Yes, you may think some fans are too anal, but that's your base of buyers.
Then, it's also interesting how often fans both take it and defend those who do it.

I don't think he understands how invested many fans are in the characters. It was pretty obvious back when people were asking about the JSA back in September; his response was "we are resting that concept for awhile". Note the wording; not "those characters" or "the JSA" but "that concept". The guy was being asked by a fan about plans for that fan's favourite characters, presumably looking for reassurance, and he essentially got business-speak about a property. I don't think Dan is capable of connecting with the fans on any level. He expects everyone to see the whole situation as dispassionately as him. Which kind of begs the question: what does he think people are buying the books for?

tony ingram wrote:I don't think Dan is capable of connecting with the fans on any level.

I had an entire response here that got lost when the page locked up...

Well, having "fans" write books can turn out badly, just as can having people entirely disconnected from the fan perspective, so I'm not sure where a balance actually is.
But, the thing is, comics fans are what they are. They're not all the stereotypical "comic geek", but some are. Many are the kind of obsessive fans any genre writing attracts. And the producers know that, and use it to their advantage (think Firefly). But, it's just interesting to me how openly contemptuous of fans DiDio is, and others at DC, and how often some group of fans will support that position. Even when it's clear that they are part of the group being insulted.
And odd bunch, us comics fans.

I don't like Hawkgirl. It looks like something Hector would wear. The color scheme goes against the traditional hawk colors.

I mentioned my theories about Johns rips off everyone to a friend and he said he'd never really thought about it before. Then after thinking a moment, he interjected, "What about the red lanterns and the red hulks?"

I think DC is enjoying a sales boost but there's more going on than most realize. I fear when everyone wakes up, it'll be too late. While the first rule of comic books is anything's possible, I fear the D in DC is "dead".

I got dragged to see the Avengers for a third time. Great movie but that's enough. It's amazing that DC's characters are probably more iconic but they don't know what to do with them on the big screen. In my opinion, Ryan Reynolds (with help from Geoff Johns) has destroyed Hal Jordan. Jordan has gone from everyman to every jerk.

Are DC's characters more iconic? I'd say Spider-Man, Hulk and possibly even Wolverine are easily as recognizable as Superman, Batman & Robin and Wonder Woman, and those are probably the only superheroes the general public is really aware of on that level (I'm speaking on an international scale here, naturally; lesser lights such as Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Iron Man, Thor and Captain America may well be familiar to many more in the US but they're all relatvely unknown elsewhere).

Except for comic book collectors, and until the recent films, more Americans probably knew more DC heroes than Marvel (even Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman) because constant reruns of Superfriends have kept them in the spotlight. There have been Marvel shows (live action and animated) but DC has stayed in the forefront with Superfriends and then the Paul Dini universe.

Ah. I suspect it's slightly different here: there tend to be more Marvel cartoons (the 90s X-Men and Spider-Man shows are always being shown on one channel or another) and of course, there are several Marvel reprint titles in most high street newsagents every month, while DC have never really succeeded with British editions of their books. Only Batman really has any kind of mass market penetration. I don't think Superfriends has been shown on British TV since the early eighties.

On a whim I bought the first issues of the familiar sounding Earth 2 and World's Finest.

Both good fun, with only the fact that I'm already buying far too many comics at the moment putting me off coming back next month.

MLP* wrote:On a whim I bought the first issues of the familiar sounding Earth 2 and World's Finest.

Both good fun, with only the fact that I'm already buying far too many comics at the moment putting me off coming back next month.

Oh my. . .I'll hold the lynch squad off, RUN!!!

Just for fun questions:

I'm re-reading DC's New Frontier. If the JSA had gone similar to this and Batman debuted later, who could have taken his place in the JSA's origin?

If started all over, would you keep Earth-Two, X, and S separate? Or would you have a Earth-G for Golden Age?

If you could pick Marvel/Timely characters to replace departing JSAers in the Golden Age (Hourman, etc.), who would you choose?

Happy Monday!

I think I'd go with the Clock as Batman's replacement, the first masked hero in American comics. As for the multiple Earths question, I'd definitely keep Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family on their own Earth (CM in particular has a unique feel that sets him apart from other characters) but have everyone else, not just the Quality characters but the other Fawcett ones like Spy Smasher, as well. I liked the Earth X scenario but it was needlessly overcomplicated with hindsight.

As far as Timely characters go, I'd definitely like to use the Black Marvel, the Blue Blade, the Blazing Skull and the Terror if I could. And also Red Raven and Blue Diamond of the Liberty Legion. I've always liked Red Raven in particular.

Have you read the latest Alter Ego (#109)? I loved the alternate lineup for the JSA except for one thing: no Aquaman! Instead of using Johnny Quick, I would have used Aquaman. Great, fun read, though!

No, it'll be in my file at Central City but I haven't had a chance to go into Ipswich so far. Probably Tuesday.

It's a great issue. I do digital. Cheaper, LOL. (But someone stole my Comic Book Marketplace JSA issue. I found replacement copy on Ebay just now.)

I'm tired of DC and I miss collecting comics. I decided to make my own. I have tons of comics, archives, trades, and scans. So I'm making my own personal All-Star Comics. Each issue is a separate reprint. All my favorite stories.

Issue #1 is Superman's origin.

Here's my cover:



Title page:



Even a letters page!

That's the 10 founding members and the secretary!

randy77tx wrote:That's the 10 founding members and the secretary!

Nice. But I've never liked that Hawkman mask, I much prefer any of his various Hawk-head versions.

Same for Atom.

randy77tx wrote:Same for Atom.

I don't mind his fin head look so much, but I prefer the original version. Unfortunately, I think the Silver Age stories popularized the last versions of Hawkman and Atom's outfits from the tail-end of the GA All-Star Comics and Flash Comics, and a lot of later readers assumed that (at least in Hawkman's case) that was what they always looked like. I actually preferred the versions they wore in the short lived pre-Zero Hour run to either of their Silver Age outfits. I liked Atom's full-head mask concealing the fact that he was going bald and had a big, bushy old man's moustache!

randy77tx wrote:That's the 10 founding members and the secretary!

Where's Johnny Thunder? SAY YOU, I DEMAND JOHNNY THUNDER!!!

And yeah, I don't like the Atom and Hawkman's alternate masks either. I don't think anyone does.

My favourite Hawkman mask is still the Earth Two Hawkman's golden helmet from the seventies. I wish it had lasted longer.

tony ingram wrote:My favourite Hawkman mask is still the Earth Two Hawkman's golden helmet from the seventies. I wish it had lasted longer.

That was how I was first introduced to him, and I had no idea he'd had more than one. It was cool, but I like the more full-faced one from the earliest stories. I think that's the one they used in All-Star Squadron.

Mbast1 wrote:

tony ingram wrote:My favourite Hawkman mask is still the Earth Two Hawkman's golden helmet from the seventies. I wish it had lasted longer.

That was how I was first introduced to him, and I had no idea he'd had more than one. It was cool, but I like the more full-faced one from the earliest stories. I think that's the one they used in All-Star Squadron.

It was, and that's where I first encountered it, but I could never get used to it. The double beak just looked weird and awkward to me.

tony ingram wrote:It was, and that's where I first encountered it, but I could never get used to it. The double beak just looked weird and awkward to me.

I just thought it was visually interesting, and served to differentiate the two Hawks.